Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[CluckyCharms]

Thank you for the advice, I think he had a good idea too (because I do tend to start projects with a LOT of excitement and then sort of peter out)...so I can understand the request for a 2 year wait, and he didn't impose it on me he just asked if I would consider it. I considered it and agreed to it, it makes sense. Unfortunately I have found THREE other Heritage Breeds that I very much like the appearance of so now I need to make a decision. I don't want to wait to decide 2 years from now and then know nothing about the breed.

I want to decide early so I know exactly where I need to look for information on that specific one. GAH I hate making decisions on breeds, it is too hard.

We took a small break from the confines of the house, and went to TSC to get some supplies. I needed three more waterers. We got 5 jugs of Diatomaceous Earth, 6 bags of riverbed sand and 3 gallons of paint (all for the new coop). It's finally becoming real and everything is coming together. I'm pretty certain our 4 week olds will be just fine in the coop by themselves at 6 weeks, too. Right now we have them acclimating in our spare room that I purposely am keeping at 60 degrees and they're happy as clams without the heat lamp. The little babies are in there as well but they do have heat lamps and they are fine as well (nobody is huddling due to being cold). I'm trying not to baby the heck out of my chickens anymore. I love them and I cuddle them and talk to them but I mean in regard to temperature...I want them to be cold hardy and I think that has something to do with how you raise them. They have no problem in there at 60 degrees and the babies are sitting at 75 with the lamps.

 

[Pozees]

Agreed. Breeding is not about pairing up the right two. I am not necessarily keeping the best birds so my culls may or may not be show quality (and a person inevitably asks me why I am not keeping this one or that one-- it may be because I have the brother right there that I like a little better or because I already have enough pullets I have selected for that particular group; heck sometimes it is a stupid reason). What I am keeping is the best birds for my particular goals from each group. One group may not be up to the par of another group in totality but necessary nonetheless for preserving the genetics of my flock as a whole. Also, I never want a new problem so will not keep anything that has something I don't want started anywhere. However, overall, I have found that as far as getting the better specimens, the apple does not fall too far from the tree. In other words, like produces like for the most part. Breed a bird that has a fault or something you do not desire (but you are using for another trait) and the trait you don't want shows up too, shows up a lot. I don't accept a bad trait in a second generation. I will keep a bird because it has one trait I sorely need (no matter its other faults unless a new problem). With other breeders seeking stock from me, I ask, "What are you trying to improve or correct?" I will sell or give them a bird from my flock exhibiting something they need. With someone like Don Schrider, I just bring some stock and let him pick what he wants. Fortunately, my breed is easy to select and so just some good genetics to start with & you're on your way (i.e. they propagate well). About the Buckeye, one breeder at the Ohio National a few weeks ago told me (and I agree), "the Buckeye is a farm chicken, a homestead fowl, that we clean up and bring to the show." That is literally true. Mine are running around in the pasture, the barns, the forest, the front yard, all about. A couple of weeks before the show, I look around as to who looks good, catch a few, weigh them, look them over, cage the ones I think are or will show well at that time for the first time, give 'em a bath a week before and show them -- no pampering, nothing special. When you are selecting for meat for your table each week, as I, then you become more particular about type & production qualities -- it is what I eat for my chicken so for me & my purpose, the show is a secondary thing -- a way to showcase the breed and get some feedback. In the end, I am mostly concerned about meat for the table and that is what I will select for. Same with the La Fleche I am starting out with; I will do the same. What I have found is when I select for meat for the table, that also does good at the few shows I have been to.

This is what I'm here for. Thanks to all of you who share your approaches to breeding. It is invaluable. When someone has asked for assistance in a breeding program, how much can you tell from pictures? Are videos more useful?

 

[Lacy Blues]

Agreed. Breeding is not about pairing up the right two. I am not necessarily keeping the best birds so my culls may or may not be show quality (and a person inevitably asks me why I am not keeping this one or that one-- it may be because I have the brother right there that I like a little better or because I already have enough pullets I have selected for that particular group; heck sometimes it is a stupid reason). What I am keeping is the best birds for my particular goals from each group. One group may not be up to the par of another group in totality but necessary nonetheless for preserving the genetics of my flock as a whole. Also, I never want a new problem so will not keep anything that has something I don't want started anywhere. However, overall, I have found that as far as getting the better specimens, the apple does not fall too far from the tree. In other words, like produces like for the most part. Breed a bird that has a fault or something you do not desire (but you are using for another trait) and the trait you don't want shows up too, shows up a lot. I don't accept a bad trait in a second generation. I will keep a bird because it has one trait I sorely need (no matter its other faults unless a new problem). With other breeders seeking stock from me, I ask, "What are you trying to improve or correct?" I will sell or give them a bird from my flock exhibiting something they need. With someone like Don Schrider, I just bring some stock and let him pick what he wants. Fortunately, my breed is easy to select and so just some good genetics to start with & you're on your way (i.e. they propagate well). About the Buckeye, one breeder at the Ohio National a few weeks ago told me (and I agree), "the Buckeye is a farm chicken, a homestead fowl, that we clean up and bring to the show." That is literally true. Mine are running around in the pasture, the barns, the forest, the front yard, all about. A couple of weeks before the show, I look around as to who looks good, catch a few, weigh them, look them over, cage the ones I think are or will show well at that time for the first time, give 'em a bath a week before and show them -- no pampering, nothing special. When you are selecting for meat for your table each week, as I, then you become more particular about type & production qualities -- it is what I eat for my chicken so for me & my purpose, the show is a secondary thing -- a way to showcase the breed and get some feedback. In the end, I am mostly concerned about meat for the table and that is what I will select for. Same with the La Fleche I am starting out with; I will do the same. What I have found is when I select for meat for the table, that also does good at the few shows I have been to.

Thank you so much for this. It lets me know that I'm on the right track and also presents some other issues I need to consider. Like this last guy said... "this is why I come here."

 

[bnjrob]

My new breed will be Dr. Albert McGraws Mot led Javas. I have never seen one in my life but they need a home and I am doing this for his legacy and hope to share them with others. He was a great promoter of poultry 20 years ago and the Heritage Fowl.

Bob, I hope you'll be sharing photos and info with the Java Breeders Assoc. when you get those Javas - I know several of us in the group that would be interested in that.

 

[3riverschick]

This is what I'm here for. Thanks to all of you who share your approaches to breeding. It is invaluable.
When someone has asked for assistance in a breeding program, how much can you tell from pictures? Are videos more useful?

Depends on the angle of the pic. Just as in analyzing dog pics. Need one from each necessary angle. Top view, side view, front view, head study, rear view.
Here is a photo essay for comparison I did on a Golden Salmon Marans rooster I once owned. Note the head detail and wing detail. Not filmed thru wire.
Wire is nice for a background to estimate dimensions, but not in front of the bird.
http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=9380350
One thing I don't have are pics of the underside of the wing and of the shanks/feet.
Make a photo essay like this and put it in photobucket or a quick, free webs.com site. then post the link here.
Best,
Karen

 

[bnjrob]

In regard to illness...isn't there some sort of blood panel test that could be given to these birds so that they can be given a clean bill of health by a livestock veterinarian? I don't see how perfectly healthy birds going to another flock of perfectly healthy birds would need to be quarantined for non-existent illnesses...I think that's the bit that is confusing me (but again, I'm brand new).

No, there aren't any blood tests that can immediately say "this chicken is healthy" so that you don't have to quarantine your chickens. Various illnesses have different incubation periods and will not often not be readily apparent. Which is why you may see a 30 day or more quarantine period recommended by some. In addition, there are LOTS of different germs out there that can cause chicken diseases - testing for even the most common can get pricey - particularly when you have to send out the blood work to a state poultry lab. And sometimes a vet cannot draw the blood - the state may require that one of their people come to your place to draw blood.

With regard to the question as to whether or not I would be willing to own a low quality heritage cull female? IF she wasn't sick, deformed, featherless or otherwise dastardly looking or losing out on her quality of life by a deformity then I would absolutely be thoroughly delighted to go that route...but only if I cannot find any way, shape or form to breed quality ones. I wouldn't breed another breeder's cull because to me, that's just stupidity. If a breeder decided against breeding a certain chicken there is almost always a valid reason...why go against it and breed it anyway? That would only show someone to be a poor conductor of good breeding practices, in my opinion. Remember that I am new and a lot here are not, and I will change my opinions on things over time as I learn more.

When I recommend you ask for a breeder's culls, I am not talking about messed up chickens. People cull for different things - tail angle "not quite right", comb has one more point than it should, eye color is wrong, leg color not the best, breast not big enough, tail a little pinched. There are people on here that breed to an old SOP instead of the current SOP and may cull from their breeding program for those issues. All of this does not mean that you are getting an inferior bird, it means that the breeder didn't want to use that one to breed for one reason or another.

And if you got some culls, there is nothing to say that you wouldn't want to use them for breeding later on down the road when you were able to do some breeding. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the APA SOP is simply what the APA voting members decided looked good at the time when they decided to vote a standard in existence. Just because the breeder you bought them from didn't like them, doesn't mean that there is something wrong with them and you couldn't shouldn't breed them yourself if you chose.

For example, my chosen breed of Javas has had changes in the SOP and an older SOP allows for "gypsy" coloring in the face/comb years ago but now only red is acceptable. At one time White Javas were recognized by the APA but then the APA decided not to recognize white ones. Right now, myself and some others in a group I belong to have been discussing breeding some of ours to the old standards, since those old-fashioned standards appeal to us. As well as encouraging some of the other colors that have come out in Javas that are no longer being stringently culled for and possibly trying to get other colors admitted to the APA.

There's a lot out there - be open to all possibilities and do a lot of research. I researched for several years before deciding to not only get chickens, but which breed I was going to get, and whether or not I was going to just have backyard feed store chickens or I was going to go with a Heritage breed and do some serious breeding with them.

 

[bnjrob]

Yes, I can see your point. However, these folk who only want laying hens? Those hens will be there for several years. If you ever need a back-cross or a restart, or something, the flock will be there to help out. Plus you can keep resupplying these folk with new layers over the years, creating a parallel flock of layers to your own. Always a good safety net. Plus, it a good thing to see how as many as possible grow up from your strain. I consider those who "just want layers" to be a valuable reservoir of genetics for preservation projects. Perhaps some day situations will change and they will be able to have a breeding project. That's a good thing too. People who "just want laying hens" are an important part of any preservation project and are important genetic partners.
Best,
Karen

In theory this is a nice idea. But my experience with people that just want laying hens is that those hens are their pets and they aren't going to be willing to have them used for breeding by the original breeder. Most people don't want their pet dog or cat to be taken from them for breeding purposes - much less sold back to the original breeder. I just don't see many people with chicken pets letting the breeder use their hens either.

This one person that is interested would probably understand this and wouldn't have a problem letting the original breeder do some breeding with their hen, but I doubt it would be the norm with most people that demand "the best" pullets from a breeder but aren't going to breed themselves.

IMO it's probably better to get a chicken breeding partner rather than hoping a backyard pet/egg flock owner will help with breeding if need be later on.

 

[CluckyCharms]

It's funny that you posted all of that because my mind changed in about 5 seconds after I posted that reply (you can read my opinion on owning cully birds in a recent thread I made). After taking time to actually think about it - I wouldn't want a chicken that would otherwise be culled, because I don't think that would be responsible on my part or the part of the breeder to let a chicken out of their hands that wasn't up to par. I see what you mean about different definitions of a "cull" and how one breeder may differ in their preferences versus another. My main thing is that I never want to have a purebred chicken with a flaw...even if I'm not breeding they can escape and someone else can breed them and then I just helped someone propagate the Earth with a flawed breed. =/

It's a shame there are no blood tests that would markedly say "Your chicken has or does not have this and that"...but I guess there aren't blood tests for everything in the "people" world either.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my post and answering some questions I had. I'm looking to learn all I can.

 

[bnjrob]

You guys have convinced me. Last month I sent Duane Urch a check for 25 black java chicks when they become available in the spring. Last week I found the guy who raised the black java trio I fell in love with at the county fair back in April. He has given his reserve champion trio to 4H, and he was excited that Mr. Urch's chicks will be bringing some new java blood into the area. I can only keep a couple of breeding trios here. Once the chicks have grown out we'll be dividing up the birds to improve both flocks and donating birds to 4H and other breeding programs.

Once the chicks arrive I'll be able to switch my avatar from my "beginner" production red to something more heritage

Consider joining the Java Breeders of America. We need more people. We have a list serv and Facebook group where we talk as well as a newsletter. www.javabreedersofamerica.com

Bob Blosl occasionally writes articles for our group too and hopefully he will do some more once he gets his new fancy Javas

 

[CluckyCharms]

In theory this is a nice idea. But my experience with people that just want laying hens is that those hens are their pets and they aren't going to be willing to have them used for breeding by the original breeder. Most people don't want their pet dog or cat to be taken from them for breeding purposes - much less sold back to the original breeder. I just don't see many people with chicken pets letting the breeder use their hens either.

This one person that is interested would probably understand this and wouldn't have a problem letting the original breeder do some breeding with their hen, but I doubt it would be the norm with most people that demand "the best" pullets from a breeder but aren't going to breed themselves.

IMO it's probably better to get a chicken breeding partner rather than hoping a backyard pet/egg flock owner will help with breeding if need be later on.

If it meant I would be contributing to the continued efforts of saving the best line of a certain breed, I would gladly give any pet chicken back to the breeder to help further the cause; in a heartbeat. I wouldn't necessarily *like* it in regard to missing my pets, but I would do it. I would do the same (and have an agreement stating so) with my Yorkie breeder. I couldn't imagine a world without my Yorkie's lines in it - same with my favorite chickens. :O