Brahma Thread

[big medicine]

(Am tempted to get some LF LIghts.)

Excellent ! Bawahahahaa

 

[Sally Sunshine]

Quote:

 

[aceschix]

Quote:

 

[aceschix]

Quote: Very descriptive!! Thank you.

 

[oshun55555]

Let me give you a little background on this and that might help, and I really appreciate your help with this as I want to breed some of your birds and build up a nice flock.
I originally contacted Dan Powell for some of his Buff laced birds, he had 2 hens and a Cockerel left and had 4 gold laced hens, the Buff Laced are all split to gold, I purchased all of the buffs and gold he had, he also had one Big Sliver Laced Rooster split to Gold and a Silver Laced Hen which I also got, neither of them displayed any evidence of VH and most likely have recessive for the trait, I fell in love with the Silvers.
When I bred them this year I did it as one flock to get whatever genetic diversity I could. I put the Buff split to gold rooster over the 3 buff laced hens, 4 gold hens and 1 silver hen in one breeding pen, out of those I got Silver laced, white, buff and gold offspring. Don’t know which of the gold girls threw silver offspring and not sure which offspring came from the silver hen. This mating produced some Silver males all with evidence of being split to gold, some with vulture hocks, which tells me some of Daniels Birds had recessive VH genes. I wrote to him, he does not answer often as he is out of the country, but when he did, he told me that he had accidentally re-introduced VH into his flock, so some of those gold and buff hens carry the VH.
I then put the Old Silver male over all the hens, he produced gold, silver, white and buff offspring, but still did not know who which hens produced the VH birds, (all the silvers show evidence of being split to gold, hackles and saddle feathers brassy and some gold leaking in the white part of the cockerels wings, that’s the reason the I asked about using the old silver boy again next year) he threw some magnificent Gold laced cockerels with foot feathering to die for, but they have the kind of vulture hocks that curl around the top of the leg like some of the European Brahmas and could easily go unnoticed as VH (those are the ones I said had mini vulture hocks) now I got a few that when they got older showed evidence of the vulture hocks, it’s was like as you said, one day no VH and then there they were.
Then I put the Old Silver and the silver pullet in the breeding pen to do a test breeding and hopefully get full blooded silvers in the bunch. However she went broody and I grafted 2 clutches of laced bird on to her and then she went broody again in August so I grafted 15 meaties on to her, she is an amazing mother (twice she actually attacked hawks trying to eat her babies), I want to breed more broodies from her. In any event I did not get the test breeding of her done this year.
I did do a pair breeding with the Buff laced Cock and one of the buff laced hens, she produced 25 offspring and no vulture hocks, although I suspect some of her offspring carry the gene. So I am on a quest to get rid of the VH gene and produce some nice Silver Laced birds. I will take your advice on this and eat the old Silver laced boy. Now my question is I have one Silver cockerel that I will use to cover the Silver hen (his mother), I have one of the old boys’ daughters that looks good but it is the sister or half sister of the new cockerel, can I breed her with him or should I just use the old hen onlywho is his mother? And again thanks for your advice, sorry everybody for this long post. I got rid of all the vulture hock silver pullets so can’t test with those, but I will have more.

Ok, let me see if if I have this right. The old male is split silver/gold, so he looks silver with brassy hackles/saddle ? So he also produced gold pullets ?

The fact he is producing vulture hocked young tells us he is carrying a copy of VH, along with at least some of the females. It takes a copy from each parent to show full blown VH.

To breed out vulture hocks, first step remove all the VH females from the breeding pen. These VH females will pass a copy to each and every one of their young. But I would hold on to a few of them, as they will valuable to test mate with, showing you if a normal looking hocked male may be carrying a single copy of VH. Second step, I believe I would look to the cockerels for next years breeders, Your old male is giving a copy of VH to 50% of his offspring, plus the gold split thing. I would suspect the weak middle toe feathered cockerels are likely not carrying VH. The VH birds always seem to have massive foot/leg feathering.

The mini vulture hocked guys are the mystery factor for me. There are other enhancer or modifier genetics at play here. These often seem to develope late on what was previously a promising looking bird. I do not use them for breeders. I suspect this same trait can go easily unnoticed on females, as it blends into their fluff.

Breeding the old male to some good lights will only mess up the color pattern and still have half carrying a copy of VH. Breeding these pullets back to the old male will only increase the % of VH.

I believe I would go with the best of the weak middle toe feathered cockerels with good type, cleanest silver, good pattern. You will not clean up the hocks or the gold by continuing with the old male. Improving foot feathering will prove much easier than getting rid of VH. Use only the clean hocked females, some of these clean hocked gals will still likely carry a single copy. You could test mate these as well, with a VH male, any that produce chicks that shoot hock feathers when wing feathering, you know carry a copy.

I hope this helps some.

 

[dak]

Excellent ! Bawahahahaa

I said tempted. Let me know if the Petersons have some they are givng away.

 

[aceschix]

Let me give you a little background on this and that might help, and I really appreciate your help with this as I want to breed some of your birds and build up a nice flock.
I originally contacted Dan Powell for some of his Buff laced birds, he had 2 hens and a Cockerel left and had 4 gold laced hens, the Buff Laced are all split to gold, I purchased all of the buffs and gold he had, he also had one Big Sliver Laced Rooster split to Gold and a Silver Laced Hen which I also got, neither of them displayed any evidence of VH and most likely have recessive for the trait, I fell in love with the Silvers.
When I bred them this year I did it as one flock to get whatever genetic diversity I could. I put the Buff split to gold rooster over the 3 buff laced hens, 4 gold hens and 1 silver hen in one breeding pen, out of those I got Silver laced, white, buff and gold offspring. Don’t know which of the gold girls threw silver offspring and not sure which offspring came from the silver hen. This mating produced some Silver males all with evidence of being split to gold, some with vulture hocks, which tells me some of Daniels Birds had recessive VH genes. I wrote to him, he does not answer often as he is out of the country, but when he did, he told me that he had accidentally re-introduced VH into his flock, so some of those gold and buff hens carry the VH.
I then put the Old Silver male over all the hens, he produced gold, silver, white and buff offspring, but still did not know who which hens produced the VH birds, (all the silvers show evidence of being split to gold, hackles and saddle feathers brassy and some gold leaking in the white part of the cockerels wings, that’s the reason the I asked about using the old silver boy again next year) he threw some magnificent Gold laced cockerels with foot feathering to die for, but they have the kind of vulture hocks that curl around the top of the leg like some of the European Brahmas and could easily go unnoticed as VH (those are the ones I said had mini vulture hocks) now I got a few that when they got older showed evidence of the vulture hocks, it’s was like as you said, one day no VH and then there they were.
Then I put the Old Silver and the silver pullet in the breeding pen to do a test breeding and hopefully get full blooded silvers in the bunch. However she went broody and I grafted 2 clutches of laced bird on to her and then she went broody again in August so I grafted 15 meaties on to her, she is an amazing mother (twice she actually attacked hawks trying to eat her babies), I want to breed more broodies from her. In any event I did not get the test breeding of her done this year.
I did do a pair breeding with the Buff laced Cock and one of the buff laced hens, she produced 25 offspring and no vulture hocks, although I suspect some of her offspring carry the gene. So I am on a quest to get rid of the VH gene and produce some nice Silver Laced birds. I will take your advice on this and eat the old Silver laced boy. Now my question is I have one Silver cockerel that I will use to cover the Silver hen (his mother), I have one of the old boys’ daughters that looks good but it is the sister or half sister of the new cockerel, can I breed her with him or should I just use the old hen onlywho is his mother? And again thanks for your advice, sorry everybody for this long post. I got rid of all the vulture hock silver pullets so can’t test with those, but I will have more.

Quote: I am goping to test my learning here and ask...

Wouldn't it be best to test mate the 2 silvers (to each other) hatch a bunch of those eggs to be sure you are breeding silver to silver and THEN see what comes?

big medicine - correct me if I am way off as I am learning at your knee - so to speak

 

[oshun55555]

I am goping to test my learning here and ask...

Wouldn't it be best to test mate the 2 silvers (to each other) hatch a bunch of those eggs to be sure you are breeding silver to silver and THEN see what comes?

big medicine - correct me if I am way off as I am learning at your knee - so to speak

I was unable to do that this year, it had been my intention but she went broody 3 times this summer and had to put that off. I only had one Silver Laced hen.

 

[oshun55555]

Here are some photos of the Old Silvers offspring I was thinking of breeding next year, he does have feathering down the 3rd toe, but not sure if he has VH, all the other cockerels had either obvious VH or not (with no or little 3rd toe feathering, however this one is a little iffy ... he is 5 months old, he is not the best but he is a start ...what do you think?

 

[big medicine]

Let me give you a little background on this and that might help, and I really appreciate your help with this as I want to breed some of your birds and build up a nice flock.
I originally contacted Dan Powell for some of his Buff laced birds, he had 2 hens and a Cockerel left and had 4 gold laced hens, the Buff Laced are all split to gold, I purchased all of the buffs and gold he had, he also had one Big Sliver Laced Rooster split to Gold and a Silver Laced Hen which I also got, neither of them displayed any evidence of VH and most likely have recessive for the trait, I fell in love with the Silvers.
When I bred them this year I did it as one flock to get whatever genetic diversity I could. I put the Buff split to gold rooster over the 3 buff laced hens, 4 gold hens and 1 silver hen in one breeding pen, out of those I got Silver laced, white, buff and gold offspring. Don’t know which of the gold girls threw silver offspring and not sure which offspring came from the silver hen. This mating produced some Silver males all with evidence of being split to gold, some with vulture hocks, which tells me some of Daniels Birds had recessive VH genes. I wrote to him, he does not answer often as he is out of the country, but when he did, he told me that he had accidentally re-introduced VH into his flock, so some of those gold and buff hens carry the VH.
I then put the Old Silver male over all the hens, he produced gold, silver, white and buff offspring, but still did not know who which hens produced the VH birds, (all the silvers show evidence of being split to gold, hackles and saddle feathers brassy and some gold leaking in the white part of the cockerels wings, that’s the reason the I asked about using the old silver boy again next year) he threw some magnificent Gold laced cockerels with foot feathering to die for, but they have the kind of vulture hocks that curl around the top of the leg like some of the European Brahmas and could easily go unnoticed as VH (those are the ones I said had mini vulture hocks) now I got a few that when they got older showed evidence of the vulture hocks, it’s was like as you said, one day no VH and then there they were.
Then I put the Old Silver and the silver pullet in the breeding pen to do a test breeding and hopefully get full blooded silvers in the bunch. However she went broody and I grafted 2 clutches of laced bird on to her and then she went broody again in August so I grafted 15 meaties on to her, she is an amazing mother (twice she actually attacked hawks trying to eat her babies), I want to breed more broodies from her. In any event I did not get the test breeding of her done this year.
I did do a pair breeding with the Buff laced Cock and one of the buff laced hens, she produced 25 offspring and no vulture hocks, although I suspect some of her offspring carry the gene. So I am on a quest to get rid of the VH gene and produce some nice Silver Laced birds. I will take your advice on this and eat the old Silver laced boy. Now my question is I have one Silver cockerel that I will use to cover the Silver hen (his mother), I have one of the old boys’ daughters that looks good but it is the sister or half sister of the new cockerel, can I breed her with him or should I just use the old hen onlywho is his mother? And again thanks for your advice, sorry everybody for this long post. I got rid of all the vulture hock silver pullets so can’t test with those, but I will have more.

Alright, a lot of information to digest here.

Let's start by going over a few few different things we are going to be talking about here, simplified some, because that's how my brain operates best.

1) Vuture hocks is a resessive trait. Full blown VH requires a copy inherited from each parent. A full blown VH bird will pass on a copy to each and every one of it's young. A bird with only one copy will appear normal, but will still pass a copy to 50% of it's young.

2) All chickens are either gold or silver based. Only males can be split gold/silver. Females can not, they are one, or the other. Now there are a ton of enhanser/modifiers that can muddy the water here, but we're keeping it simple. Female chick's base color is determined by the their father. Male chicks color is a combination of both parents contributions.

3) There are two types of white. Recessive, which requires two copies to show itself, and acts kind of like a switch and turns off the color, resulting in an all white bird. And dominant white, which will show itself with only one copy present. Dominant white is more effective removing the color black from the feather, leaving the base color. To my understanding , buff laced is basically gold laced with the addition of dominant white. So these birds being called buff laced/gold laced split are buff laced carrying a single copy of dominant white, and have a 50-50 shot of passing dominant white on to their young.

Now to some of the particulars. In your first breeding pen consisting of the buff laced male, buff, gold, and a silver laced female. The silver laced female produced the silver/gold split laced cockerels. Her pullets would have been either gold or buff laced. None of the gold or buff laced hens produced any silver laced chicks with that buff laced male. Not sure what to make of white chicks out of this pen. It is possible it could be a silver/gold split cockerel out of the silver laced hen that recieved dominant white from dad, effectively removing the black lacing. Now one thing we have learned here by the presence of the VH silver/gold cockerels is that the silver laced hen carries a copy of VH, as does the buff laced male.

As to the second breeding, silver/gold split male over same hens. Did this breeding produce any full blown VH chicks ? Did you get any "white" pullets ? This breeding should have produced some clean silver laced pullets, unless mom threw dominant in the mix.

The breeding of the buff laced pair producing no VH chicks make me think the hen you used carried no VH. Which means half those chicks likely recieved a copy from Dad.

We know the old silver laced hen is carrying a single copy of VH. The pullet may be also, or may be clear. I would say you probably need to use both. You could also use the gold laced hens with a split silver/gold laced male to potentally produce both clean gold, or silver laced pullets, and cockerels, as well as more split cockerels.

If you know which buff laced female you pair mated to the buff male that produced the clean hocked chicks, I would get every chick out of her you can. She appears to be clear of VH.