breaking a dog from chasing chooks

[al6517]

Quote:
Yes indeed within the first nano second of the infraction, it's called the 3 second rule not the 3 minute rule. And yes using the collars does mean you need to do some homework and be responsible before attempting the collars, used wrong they can have the opposite effect.

 

[dainerra]

Juno's Chicks :

whoops sorry!!

I meant to type within 3 seconds!!!

Thanks for the catch!!!

lol I think the 3 minute rule is for dropping food on the floor. Of course, with my dogs it's still 3 seconds because Singe is a k9 vacuum.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

no, any corrections must happen IMMEDIATELY while the action is taking place. 3 minutes later, the dog has no idea what he is being corrected for. That is why keeping the dog on leash is the most important part in the beginning

You can NOT correct a behavior until the behavior is PERFORMED

A dog on a leash will not chase chickens, and at best, you will train it to not chase them WHEN on a leash.
That doesn't keep them from doing it when you aren't there

Anyone who can read can operate a shock collar, and get the desired results.​

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
You can NOT correct a behavior until the behavior is PERFORMED

A dog on a leash will not chase chickens, and at best, you will train it to not chase them WHEN on a leash.
That doesn't keep them from doing it when you aren't there

Anyone who can read can operate a shock collar, and get the desired results.

sure, they can learn how to push the button on the remote, that doesn't mean that they will use it correctly to solve the problem that they want to correct. The most important part of any correction is timing, whether you are using a leash pop or a shock collar.

I know many people who have done stupid things with a shock collar, because they were looking for a quick fix. I posted earlier about my coworker "boundary training" 'her dog. Sure, the dog doesn't leave the yard, but he is also now terrified of playing fetch. It's because, even though they read the instructions on how to operate the collar, they have ZERO concept of how to train a dog.

The idea is that you don't need to correct a behavior if you teach from the beginning what is expected of the dog. Then, if necessary, you correct when the dog does something else. Once you have trained the dog to not bother the birds while on leash, then you move on with the training to working with either a long line or off-leash.

ETA: don't you think it would be easier to have a dog that knows what is expected of him rather than waiting for him to do something wrong and then correcting him?

 

[al6517]

Well said and absolutely correct.

 

[dainerra]

an example of what I'm talking about.

I want the dog to learn "platz" I'm using "platz" because without looking it up most people won't know what it means.

I can teach him what is expected of him, showing him what I want and then rewarding for correct behavior, then adding corrections once he knows what is expected. Or I can correct him until he learns what is going on. Which do you think is faster and easier for both dog and owner?

Put on the training collar. Tell the dog "platz" Dog stands there. I correct him. "Platz" dog looks around. I correct him again. "Platz" dog doesn't do what I want so I correct him again. How long do you think it will take before he learns what I want?

The same goes for livestock. Yes, timed correctly you can end critter chasing, bothering livestock and many other simple behaviors. But what if you want the dog to protect livestock? You don't want him to be afraid of them. You don't want him to associate them with pain. You DEFINITELY don't want him to think that the livestock causes him pain.

It's simple behavior management. The learning process goes faster with a 2 prong approach. First training and reinforcement of the desired behavior followed by correcting improper behavior

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

I can teach him what is expected of him, showing him what I want and then rewarding for correct behavior, then adding corrections once he knows what is expected. Or I can correct him until he learns what is going on. Which do you think is faster and easier for both dog and owner?

If "what is expected" is NOT chasing chickens when he's ALONE, then your method cannot work at all.

You're comparing teaching "tricks" to correcting bad behavior, and still comparing a "pet" to a working dog

But what if you want the dog to protect livestock? You don't want him to be afraid of them. You don't want him to associate them with pain. You DEFINITELY don't want him to think that the livestock causes him pain.

LGD's don't have to be "taught" to protect livestock, since that is instinctive
What you are teaching to to NOT TOUCH the chickens

A properly used shock collar causes NO PAIN at all.
That is in the instrictions also

The fact that you keep claiming it does shows you really don't know about them either, regardless of what "someone you know" did out of ignorance

Which do you think is faster and easier for both dog and owner?

I already answered that several times​

 

[dainerra]

Yes, a properly used shock collar will cause no pain, but I have zero faith in the general public to know how to use one properly. Are they the type to read directions? Are they the patient type who will work up to the correct setting or will they say to heck with it and set it on 10? How is their timing? Do they have experience with working with dogs? Are they older or someone with a disability that might cause them to have slower reflexes? All of those are factors in whether or not a shock collar is a good choice for someone.

Again, the first step to training a dog is to set them up to AVOID the correction. Step one is teaching them the CORRECT behavior - leave the birds alone. Ever wonder why the collar has a vibrate button?

Here is how the ecollar is supposed to work (and yes I use one myself)
You train the dog the desired behavior - not chasing chickens. Doing this onleash is easy.
Then you work up to a long line (20 feet or so) and then you work offleash in your presence.
THEN you move to the ecollar. You see the dog start to run toward the birds, you give a vibrate warning. ™99X out of 100, he is going to stop instantly because he already KNOWS that he is not supposed to do that. If he doesn't then he gets a correction.

Or, you can try for a quick fix, slap on a shock collar and punish the dog until he gets the idea.

In the end, a shock collar is the training TOOL, not the training METHOD.

Edited for clarity....

 

[watchdogps]

First of all, there is a lot of crucial information missing. How old is the dog, what kind of dog, and what measures have been taken so far?
OP?

 

[kota1369]

Quote:
BRAVO! Very correct information. E-collars are wonderful humane tools WHEN USED PROPERLY. Just most people have not been taught how to use them.
I start my dogs out with simply learning that a chicken is higher on the totum pole then they are. The dog is on the leash when training at first and you will have the best results "Training an already Tired dog!!!!!!"
Consistancy is very important and each dog is different. Some are way easier then others. My dogs know they are mine and not allowed to play with them. Just like they know not to play with my shoes!
What is fastest for the dog and the owner was asked. That is simple.
Start out teaching your dog the moment you have it how you want it to behave.
Be fair, clear, and correct them when needed. Teach your dog the word NO! Its faster to get out then "leave it". My dogs are taught like I was as a kid. NO means NO. simple as that. No, means stop what you're doing NOW.

And as watchdogps stated there is alot more info needed.
A properly used shock collar causes NO PAIN at all. Its a tool to re-inforce what you have already taught the dog. Not a tool to teach the dog with.