Breeding for meat qualities in a sustainable dual purpose breed

[paduanchook]

Has anyone considered American games? My hens are not large, but boy howdy do they have meat on them. Im experimenting with a.g. crosses now. Talking about vigor, my american games are extremely hardy, never having one to be sick. I have a production red x game and im waiting to see how that works. I have one ag x cali white an it has a mille fluer pattern and beautiful as well as friendly disposition. I have several a.g x australorps and a ag x turken. so this experimenting is kinda fun as well as educational.

 

[Far North Queenslander]

Interesting post. No-one has mentioned Light Sussex, which dress out at around 6 and a half pounds at seven months old.

In Australia they are crossed with Indian Game (your Cornish) for a bigger bird with more meat. Find an IG rooster with long legs to tread the Sussex. This will produce sex linked chicks (males are yellow, females are brown) . Another option is to use Malay Game roosters. They are a bigger bird than the IG with longer legs, more breast muscle and bigger drumsticks. They also have a better fertility rate than the IG. These crosses can dress out at 7 and a half pounds at seven months old.

 

[Ryu]

Quote:
My experience with Heritage Breeders is that there is a fair amount of 'Do as I say, not as I do." as far as outcrossing goes. That's how when we crossed am Ameraucana roo on one of our Buckeye hens we got white legs and straight combs on some. It should not have been a trait in either parent, but I've got two hens that prove someone was mixing things up a bit!

As a Geneticist I love talking to the older guys, esp. ones who everyone says has 'great luck' breeding whatever breed. After a few minutes talking to these guys, it's clear they don't have an above average instinct/knowledge about breeding, they're keeping a coop in the back where they are crossing in whatever they need. I think it's kinda cute, they are really awnry.

If you search under Mouse breeding systems you might find some interesting strategies to use on chickens.

 

[pocopoyo]

Quote:
Tim, You are right. There is a whole lot of mixing going on in the poultry world. Most of the time, it is pretty hard to tell. Sometimes you will get recessive genes popping out when you least expect it.
If you look in the Standard, it explains how many of the American breeds were developed by crossing breeds.

not everyone makes crosses. There are some strains of games that can produce pedigrees going back for a century or more.

Some breeders will cross to another breed to improve some trait or another. I've known of breeders that have crossed black hamburgs to black minorcas to improve size. Partridge rocks to partridge cochins to improve size and color. Black Australorps to Black Orpingtons. etc.

There is a rule of thumb that if you go back to the 'pure' breed for seven generations, you essentially have a pure strain.
As far as the Exhibition poultry world is concerned, if it looks like a Delaware as described in the Standard, then it is a Delaware.

If you are selling stock that could be used as breeders, it is considered good manners to let buyers know if you have made recent crosses so they know what they are buying into.

 

[Kezzie]

Best. Thread. Ever.

So much great info! I am looking at starting a breeding program with Dark Cornish roos and Maran hens to get a sex-link meatie. I am still fuzzy about the comment earlier in the thread that a third breed should be introduced and bred to the F1. Would someone mind taking the time to explain that to me and what the benefits of creating an F2 are?

Thanks!

 

[walkswithdog]

My meat pen is shaping up to contain my large culled black rock pullets (barred/PR), bc marans and the largest of the delaware culls, including the huge young cockeral. Take awhile to grow them out and some need to hatch one group for me before they hit that pen, but it's getting there. With the dels I've got the barring for some sex linked colors.

 

[AtRendeAcres]

To many to read all!

Has anyone said Buckeye not necessarily fast growing but, large meat bird! They are very winter hardy they even go out in snow & have a pea comb which is great in the colder areas!

Joanne

 

[becky3086]

I love this thread and am glad you put it on this board because you are getting some great information here. I had read that NH Reds were rather a mean bird which is why I decided not to get any, now I wonder if they really are? Anyway, I came on here to throw houdan in the mix. Since I just did the houdan main breed page, I learned that they were very popular in France as a meat bird. Mine have grown quite quickly, although they aren't real large, however a cross might with a larger bird might bring in the size you would want.
My marans were fairly fast growing and are a decent size now, the roos anyway, my hens seems a bit on the small size to me.
I have had some very nice barred rock(Actually, I once had an absolutely HUGE barred rock rooster, never have seen a chicken that large since then) but they were not particularly fast growing.
One other thoughts, for great meat that is sustainable, you might try getting quail. Best, most tender bird you will ever eat.

 

[Davaroo]

Tim I think you have answered your own questions, in the main. You are now bogging down in the bane of the internet age - "information avalanche."
Action is what is needed as your next step. Chickens, like any living thing, are a complex topic. But the "doing" of them is dead simple.

Now, I hate to burst any bubbles, but what you are suggesting has been done for well over a hundred years here in America and longer in other parts of the world. You are definitely behind the curve on this one - more on that at the end.
That you came on it all through research, though, says much about your dogged persistence and zest for learning. So stop worrying, you're gonna do fine!

So, to address your points:

I do not mind if the meat birds I raise are the result of a cross (meaning that I must maintain two lines of breeding stock). In fact, there seems to be some evidence that hybrid vigor has a beneficial effect on size, so a cross may be useful in getting a bigger bird. Ideally these meat chickens (or their parents) would also be good layers – I want a dual purpose bird – but my emphasis is definitely on a high quality meat bird.

"Some evidence of hybrid vigor's benefits?" You are understating this, totally. Nearly all breeds we currently accept as "heritage," or even commonplace breeds, are crosses. The only "true" chicken is the native Red Jungle Fowl of S.E. Asia. By contrast, the standards we accept are as far from their jungle ancestors as can be. Hybridization was seen long ago as the path to the best results.
Well over a century ago, the best dual purpose birds were what I like to call the "Big 5"...

- White Plymouth Rocks
- White Wyandottes
- Light Brahmas
- Reds - Rhode Island or New Hampshire.
- Orpingtons - Buff or White

All are hybrids, in the strictest sense. The light and white birds give a carcass with a creamy skin tone and without prominent pin feathers... perfect for the table. They are all good to excellent layers.
The Rhode Island and Hamps also have had White sub-varieties, but they are nearly defunct. You'll pay the Devil to find some, although there is one member here at BYC who claims to have them.
The beauty of these is that the selections have already been made for you. They are all proven and are reliable.

I'd like to be able to achieve a dressed weight of over four pounds and have a good mixture of dark and white meat. I fully understand that nothing I do will result in a bird that will reach this sort of weight in the 6-8 weeks that may be possible with a Cornish cross.

By the time they start laying, or a little later, you should have achieved these weights. For cockerels, you don't want to keep them longer anyway - they are normally slaughtered at under 16 weeks. Also, there are classes of dressed fowl:

Fryers - 8 weeks
Broilers - 12 weeks
Roasters - 16 weeks, tops. Each has it's place.

For the ultimate table bird, you may wish to consider becoming a caponizer, and grow capons to 22-24 weeks. You would then be rightly called a true artisan, practicing an arcane - but highly useful - practice.

Rather than start from scratch, I hope to find that someone else has already started the process of selective breeding so that I can buy hatching eggs from them and continue what they have started.

Join a specific breed club and get in tight with the people who know the breed. Selective breeding for distinct attribute, as you are wanting, is not a big thing among backyarders - they tend to shoot for the "yard confetti, all God's critters happy together" effect in their flocks. Anything goes, really.
Breed clubs, by comparison are very focused and you are likely to find just the sort of breeder you need among their numbers.
This also implies that you should concentrate on one breed - which is very old advice. People who are after purposeful results don't scatter their resources or effort over a wide array of subjects. Consistent and measurable result comes from focused effort, something I suspect you can appreciate.

I live in Maine, so the chickens must also be very cold hardy.

Some of the greatest advances in the poultry field have come out of agricutural schools in places like Maine, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Illinois.... places with cold climates at least part of the year. Don't let that overly concern you. Stick to the Big 5 and were it me living in Maine, I'd select Wyandottes as my breed of choice.

In my reading, two breeds have caught my attention for their combination of size and early maturity: New Hampshire Reds and Delawares.

One potential advantage of working with a combination of these breeds is that certain matings will produce chicks that can be color sexed (so that meaties and pullets can be feed separate diets or so that sale of sexed chicks will be practical). Also, I have read that a Delaware x New Hampshire Red is an excellent egg layer.
While my intention is primarily to raise chickens for personal use (both eggs and meat), I already sell excess eggs and, if successful, would like to sell chicks or hatching eggs. Not so much as business, but as a way to help support my habit.

Here again it sounds as if you have reached a satisfactory conclusion. There is nothing wrong with either, for your purpose - after all it's been done before you were born, with both.
They were both developed, in fact, for exactly your needs. No need re-inventing the wheel.
The Hamp has been around longer than the Delaware, but either one would do as would pairings between them. As a way to satisfy your "Dr Frankenstein urges," they would both be excellent stock to work with.
You would also be helping these breed, as a whole, since neither are common. The Delaware is actually endangered.
However to be a part of the breed conservancy effort, you would need to maintain your birds true to type - hybrids would have to be kept completely separate from breed stock. That's at least THREE flocks you must maintain.

But, I have not found anything that really talks about a breeding program (beyond the charts for line breeding).

For that, you will mostly have to go to the older texts. Much of today's information is geared towards the commercial biz or the backyarder. Each has distinctly different needs than your very specific ones.
Truth be told, you are trying to revive the Golden Age of Small Flock Rearing, which died out more than 50 years ago. Prior to it's demise at the hands of AgriBiz Monolith, Inc., Small Flock America used methods that had been developed over nearly 70 years and which were simple, sustainable, well proven and profitable. These people made their living this way, after all. To learn how these things were done, you need some information from that period.

Here are some suggestions for you - -- -- --

"The Dollar Hen" - Milo Hastings, ca. 1906.
"Genetics of the Fowl: The Classic Guide to Chicken Genetics and Poultry Breeding" - Frederick B. Hutt, ca. 1930
Both are in re-reprint from Norton Creek Press, thanks to our good friend, Bob Plamondon. Order them direct from Bob at www.plamondon.com and he'll even sign them for you! In fact, check out Bob's stuff all around. He's gone along way to doing what you are after.

"Profitable Poultry Production" - M.G. Kains, ca. 1913.
Long out of print, but available FREE online at www.journeytoforever.org.
Mr. Kains has a nice discussion of practical breeding.

"Successful Poultry Management" - Morley a. Jull, copyright 1943.
Out of print, avaliable on the used market. Search for it @ www.alibris.com

There are others, to be sure, but these are top shelf. With these in hand, you would need no others.

Hope this helps.

 

[TimG]

Quote:
"Some evidence of hybrid vigor's benefits?" You are understating this, totally.

I meant "some evidence" to apply to an F1 generation. Reading some of the old books suggests that a cross between Breed A and Breed B will produce a hybrid that is larger in average size than either Breed A or Breed B. But, successive generations may revert to the average size of Breed A and Breed B. Similarly with egg production.

Fryers - 8 weeks
Broilers - 12 weeks
Roasters - 16 weeks, tops. Each has it's place.

I am currently wondering if roasting a chicken was common 150 years ago. Maybe stuffing a chicken and putting it in the oven is something of a modern phenomenon largely made possible by the giants produced by industrial crosses? Maybe in the past this was primarily reserved for larger birds like geese and turkeys?

For the ultimate table bird, you may wish to consider becoming a caponizer, and grow capons to 22-24 weeks. You would then be rightly called a true artisan, practicing an arcane - but highly useful - practice.

I don't think so...but you could be right.

Rather than start from scratch, I hope to find that someone else has already started the process of selective breeding so that I can buy hatching eggs from them and continue what they have started.

Join a specific breed club and get in tight with the people who know the breed. Selective breeding for distinct attribute, as you are wanting, is not a big thing among backyarders​

I was hoping that someone would read this and say: hey, I know someone who is doing this, you might want to contact this guy. But that hasn't happened (except for the "Corndel" guy who now lives in Asia and as far as I know is no longer breeding chickens).

Here are some suggestions for you - -- -- --

"The Dollar Hen" - Milo Hastings, ca. 1906.
"Genetics of the Fowl: The Classic Guide to Chicken Genetics and Poultry Breeding" - Frederick B. Hutt, ca. 1930

"Profitable Poultry Production" - M.G. Kains, ca. 1913.
Long out of print, but available FREE online at www.journeytoforever.org.
Mr. Kains has a nice discussion of practical breeding.

"Successful Poultry Management" - Morley a. Jull, copyright 1943.

There are others, to be sure, but these are top shelf. With these in hand, you would need no others.

"Genetics of the Fowl" by Hutt (1949) is also available free online through Cornell's Core Historical Literature of Agriculture series. From what I have read, it basically comes down to: produce lots of chickens, select the best, repeat.

Thanks for your comments, even though I only responded to a few, I did read them all and found just about everything useful.​