BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Beekissed]

Sounds like fermented feed...which you can have for free by adding water to your existing feed, stir well and wait...ta-dah!!!! Probiotics!!!!

P. T. Barnum would be proud of these companies....

 

[lpatelski]

Sounds like fermented feed...which you can have for free by adding water to your existing feed, stir well and wait...ta-dah!!!! Probiotics!!!!

P. T. Barnum would be proud of these companies....

on a 1000 bird scale may be a bit more challenging...

 

[Beekissed]

on a 1000 bird scale may be a bit more challenging...

True that! But, raising 1000 birds at once when one is not a commercial setup is always challenging....I'd find a way. It would be pretty easy to create probiotic liquid from fermenting of grains of various kinds and using that in the water, if nothing else. Then feeding out the grains afterwards as a bonus. A rotating set of buckets for the production of the fermented liquid and it all becomes much more simple. I'd do that before I paid money for something I could make for free.

 

[3riverschick]

Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Sounds like fermented feed...which you can have for free by adding water to your existing feed, stir well and wait...ta-dah!!!! Probiotics!!!!

P. T. Barnum would be proud of these companies....

Hi Beekissed,
Except the things they are supplementing with include more of the things that are in the feed and some things which are not in the feed. These are supplements to be top-dressed or given with water. I understand those fermenting feed won't probably be interested in what I have to say and may laugh at my efforts. That's ok. My research is mostly for those who feed dry and want to raise better birds. Esp. who want to get their chicks started off right with dry feed and supplements.
This is not my first time at the neonatal gastrointestinal enhancement rodeo. They laughed at me in the dog world until, after 5 years of research, I published the Bellwether Neonate Protocol 14 years ago which used nutrigenomics to combat and defeat fading puppy syndrome due to environmental challenges. Their puppies stopped dying and they stopped laughing.
Best,
Karen

 

[DesertChic]

True that! But, raising 1000 birds at once when one is not a commercial setup is always challenging....I'd find a way. It would be pretty easy to create probiotic liquid from fermenting of grains of various kinds and using that in the water, if nothing else. Then feeding out the grains afterwards as a bonus. A rotating set of buckets for the production of the fermented liquid and it all becomes much more simple. I'd do that before I paid money for something I could make for free.

I think you could even get a jump start on creating the probiotic additive by pouring off the whey from yogurt you buy for your family...if you eat yogurt, of course.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Sounds like fermented feed...which you can have for free by adding water to your existing feed, stir well and wait...ta-dah!!!! Probiotics!!!!

P. T. Barnum would be proud of these companies....

If the feed is medicated for the prevention of coccidiosis, wouldn't fermenting it be a bad idea?

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Yes, Poultry Star is one. There are a bunch of them. choose one you like. Note that Poultry Star is labeled as a probiotic., basically. There ae several trains of thought on how to enhance the immune system and disease resistance thru rapidly developing the GI tract into an efficient, properly working system. Probiotic is one. Vitamins and minerals another. Some are looking at feeding certain combinations of herbs. What they haven't quite figured out yet, that I can see, is proper integration ( if there is one) of all the different ideas. Maybe it is not necessary at all? Each of the different methods is proving out positive results in their studies. Some suggest it just depends on the strain one is using.
For me, the best way is the most natural way. By that I mean more of what the bird would most naturally run into in its environment. I like the probiotic idea. Here in the USA, I would also add Bovidr Labs Poultry Nutri-Drench in their water or the 1st 2 weeks.
Now why?
Ok this is going to get long, grab a soda.
here goes:
People think the chick doesn't have to eat for the 1st 48 hours after hatch because it has the yolk sac to eat off of. This is wrong. The yolk sac is already spoken for to nourish other body systems until the chick has eaten enough nourishment to stabilize its body systems. Let's just say 48 hours after hatch. Ok, if the chick uses its yolk sac for nourishment for everyday living during the 1st day or 2 of life, it will then run short on glycogen and withdraw it from the myofibers of its muscles. This will result in the bird never achieving its genetic potential of muscle development during its lifetime. The difference is not much...but it is a difference and can be seen in the bottom line of the large producers of broilers. ( Glycogen stores in the chick are low right before hatch)
Now, if we Early Feed the chicks within 6 hours of hatch and add a probiotic to help the G.I. tract get functioning as soon as possible... then continue with a vitamin/mineral/enzyme supplement ( like the Nutri-Drench) for the next 2 weeks( which covers the broiler Pre-Starter and Starter periods of development....we don't give the chick a chance to retard its development. Broilers should never "look back" in their development as their lifetime is really only about 42 days. So we see how much of that lifetime is concluded in that 14 day period.
What I haven't figured out yet....how to interweave everything successfully. Can one have too much of a good thing? I know the professional supplement like Poultry Star is a great idea. I know another breeder ( Arielle) is using a product called Avistar. I have always raised my birds on the Nutri-Drench and had wonderful results They never looked back, never a sick or dead bird, no pasty butt. I have started them on the Drench from hatch for the 1st 2 weeks and it got them off to a good start. I need further research to figure out when to slide it in with the hatching supplement.
There is so much development in chicks going on in the 1st 7 days. It's amazing.
People think these chicks are just little balls of fluff. They have so much development going on inside them. So rapid and far reaching, this development impacts on the rest of the chicks life. So lets say we feed the probiotic during the 1st week. Do we also need the Drench? We know they are both great products, act in different ways for the bird's good and produce great results in the bird's well-being.
That's' where my research is right now after months of work. The question remains. "if we give the chick both the probiotic and a vitamin/mineral/enzyme supplement at the same time...or during a partial overlapping timeframe...will we....can we... give the chick too much of a good thing...and will that harm the chick... or make no difference? That is the question. So far, I have found no studies about this. I think I need t talk to some manufacturers who so far have been very happy to share info on their products.
Best,
Karen

I put chick starter feed and water in with my pipping eggs, but I noticed the chicks didn't touch either for the first day. I did wonder if maybe they just didn't like it? Next time I will try some hard boiled egg, maybe they will like that better.

 

[Beekissed]

Hi Beekissed,
Except the things they are supplementing with include more of the things that are in the feed and some things which are not in the feed. These are supplements to be top-dressed or given with water. I understand those fermenting feed won't probably be interested in what I have to say and may laugh at my efforts. That's ok. My research is mostly for those who feed dry and want to raise better birds. Esp. who want to get their chicks started off right with dry feed and supplements.
This is not my first time at the neonatal gastrointestinal enhancement rodeo. They laughed at me in the dog world until, after 5 years of research, I published the Bellwether Neonate Protocol 14 years ago which used nutrigenomics to combat and defeat fading puppy syndrome due to environmental challenges. Their puppies stopped dying and they stopped laughing.
Best,
Karen

No one is laughing at you at all....I'm in complete agreement with the importance of establishing good gut health of the chickens from day one and I concur with the evidence of better health, better weight gains, etc. that this will cause.

What I find slightly amusing is a company marketing something that can be obtained for free at home and acting like it's some new discovery they should get paid for..it's not and those fermenting their feed have known it for some time now.

These things? They are just a fancy way of saying the same things we've been seeing from feeding our feed fermented...and I know exactly what it's like to be laughed at, we people who feed FF get that all the time from the more serious breeder set of chicken folk.

Quote:

 

[Beekissed]

If the feed is medicated for the prevention of coccidiosis, wouldn't fermenting it be a bad idea?

Don't know why anyone would want to feed medicated feed but those who do and ferment it don't seem to think it has any effect on the medicine therein....don't know how they could tell, though, as fermenting the feed likely does more than the medicine to prevent the coccidiosis.

Here's some info on some of the probiotic organisms produced in fermentation of feed....

, Salmonella, Clostridium difficile and Escherichia coli among small animals.

Pediococcus acidilactici has not been stated in any literature to have toxic effects. Another potential benefit of using them as Probiotics is their use as alternative medicines against infectious parasitic pathogens like Eimeria* in broiler-chicken [6].


Quote: