BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Arielle]

As the girls age, their ova are getting older too. Only the males make new sperm, however, those start to become malformed and are unsuccessful in reaching the ova. I assume that chickens work the same as mammals and need a high number of sperm "attacking " the ova so that eventually the biochemical changes finally allow one sperm in.

Hence, breed old to young. Breeding old to old compounds breeding issues potentially.

At least two of the very old stallions were still breeding successfully well into their 20's: Ramiro and Nimmerdor.

Meaning selecting for good fertility into old age is valuable; because if there is a male that is extraordinarily good, he can contribute for a long time. ANd of course in chickens, this is also true of the females ( horses have only 1 foal a year whereas a hen can have 100+)

Just my 2 cents.

 

[gjensen]

Perhaps frequency increases fertility....so the old guys need a little longer to get their fertility up?

It is the longer days, green forage etc. Everything is at it's best then. The later into the Spring is mid to late April compared to late February or early March.

If we watch our birds we will see a "breeding season" of sorts. Breeders manipulate it with lights etc. Even with lights, you will notice a period in the spring where the breeding is more active, the cock bird is more active and vigorous, etc. This activity settles as the temperatures start getting hotter. Obviously they will all year round, but spring is especially motivating. Spring is invigorating.

Even with lights, you will notice some complaining about fertility early in the year. Then later into the season they have better luck. Just follow the stories early in the year, and you will see notice the same.
There is no substitute for fresh greens, sunshine, and exercise. An older cock bird, might need just a bit more than the young aspiring cockerels.

 

[gjensen]

As the girls age, their ova are getting older too. Only the males make new sperm, however, those start to become malformed and are unsuccessful in reaching the ova. I assume that chickens work the same as mammals and need a high number of sperm "attacking " the ova so that eventually the biochemical changes finally allow one sperm in.

Hence, breed old to young. Breeding old to old compounds breeding issues potentially.

At least two of the very old stallions were still breeding successfully well into their 20's: Ramiro and Nimmerdor.

Meaning selecting for good fertility into old age is valuable; because if there is a male that is extraordinarily good, he can contribute for a long time. ANd of course in chickens, this is also true of the females ( horses have only 1 foal a year whereas a hen can have 100+)

Just my 2 cents.

That was explained well Arielle.

And I agree that a good typed male, that produces good offspring, and has good fertility later into his life is especially valuable. I suspect that the all in and all out mindset, leads to more of the same. A cock bird is half of the flock, so to speak. His influence is huge. We should certainly put emphasis on the hens, but we should pay special attention to a good male. You cannot do that, or identify who he is, if they are replaced every year. You just cannot do it. You replace him when you know you have better, and it has been proven that you have better, and he has outlived is usefulness.

I feel similarly about the hens. You cannot possibly have properly evaluated a female until she has completely gone through her first laying cycle (pullet year), and started back into lay for her hen year. That is a good time to select who is going into the breeding pens. And the good ones do not get replaced by pullets every cycle. It may be decided that certain individual hens are held on to for quite some time.

I believe that flock improvement is a series of small victories. We want every generation to be better, but what helps us the most is the individuals that we identify from year to year. These individuals are the small victories, and the birds we want to emphasize. We may decide that we want their influence to span more than a single generation.

This game is not a race, and it requires patience. Someone that I used to pay a lot of attention to, often emphasized the patience that this hobby required.

Some people have a project and they need to cover some ground and get what they have stabilized. I get that, but their comes a point where things begin to level out, and the progress comes slower. Then they are in the same boat as the rest of us, and the concepts become just as important to them as it is to us.

 

[Turk Raphael]

As to aspiring cockerels...

...My Dark Cornish boys are extremely entertaining! I sit and watch them chest-bump and have a good ol' time. I feel very lucky to have not lost one. If we didn't have a 'one breed rule', I could see myself having these as a well as the Buckeyes!!!

It's actually a bit of a problem..coming from a somewhat cramped situation to a place with seemingly endless space. It could make me ignore the proverbial Chicken Math!!!!!!!

 

[Arielle]

Well said George.

I can only add, that the breed of horse I mentioned above had many hoops for stallions to jump thru, and the older they were the more valuable they were BECAUSE it became more certain as to the stallions genetic value. Estimated breeding value. Old stallions could reach 99 % certainty ( a stats number) whereas a mare could never acheive that because it is based on the number of offspring; however the very best mares are recognized as possible mothers of future stallions and are bred with that in mind. ( As in bred to the very best stallions every year.) As the generations progress, the pedigree is loaded with mothers and grand mothers that were superior mares. Again, we are talking 30 years of breeding. ANd the result is a stallion that is so well bred that he is likely to out perform his sire . . . . . .maybe. He still needs to be tested in the breeding shed for years. ( remember only about 40/ 7000 colts make it to the breeding shed) Someone can do the math. THen out of those 40 added tot he breeding pool each year, the offspring are carefully evaluated, and stallions loose favor with the mare owners and stop breeding. In the past , stallions performed less than well and were dropped from the breeding pool) THe very strong selection made for a very strong competition horse in only a few years, about 50. lol



Edited to add-- becaue it was a numbers game, some of the popular young stallions reached a high value of certainy earlier as many were breeding 400-500 mares a year.

 

[gjensen]

Well said George.

I can only add, that the breed of horse I mentioned above had many hoops for stallions to jump thru, and the older they were the more valuable they were BECAUSE it became more certain as to the stallions genetic value. Estimated breeding value. Old stallions could reach 99 % certainty ( a stats number) whereas a mare could never acheive that because it is based on the number of offspring; however the very best mares are recognized as possible mothers of future stallions and are bred with that in mind. ( As in bred to the very best stallions every year.) As the generations progress, the pedigree is loaded with mothers and grand mothers that were superior mares. Again, we are talking 30 years of breeding. ANd the result is a stallion that is so well bred that he is likely to out perform his sire . . . . . .maybe. He still needs to be tested in the breeding shed for years. ( remember only about 40/ 7000 colts make it to the breeding shed) Someone can do the math. THen out of those 40 added tot he breeding pool each year, the offspring are carefully evaluated, and stallions loose favor with the mare owners and stop breeding. In the past , stallions performed less than well and were dropped from the breeding pool) THe very strong selection made for a very strong competition horse in only a few years, about 50. lol

Thankfully we can move a little faster than that.

The concepts of performance breeding is largely the same, no matter what you breed. They have to have good type (capacity to perform), be proven able to perform, and then emphasize the influence of superior performing individuals.

The line breeding concepts (which a lot of comes from old gamecock breeders that emphasized performance) are largely based on superior performing individuals and or families. Our breeding concepts come from a practical people where performance ruled.

Vigor and longevity, the least talked about traits, are the most important. Commercial layers have very good livability and vigor is high. It is an important performance characteristic. A hen can have it all, but not have vigor, and she will never perform to her potential. Where commercial layers fall short is longevity. For two reasons, I believe. One is that they are at a production extreme, and the all in and all out as not proven longevity in the parental lines.

If we breed solely from pullets we will have bred birds that will eventually have a prolapse or become egg bound etc. By emphasizing individual birds that have done well into their third season, we emphasize birds that have been proven fit. The cock bird having more influence overall is especially important to have been proven fit.

Call it whatever you want. I want Standard bred birds that can produce, are structurally sound, vigorous, fit, and have good longevity. I want active, athletic birds, that are confident, but not nervous and flighty.

 

[gjensen]

As to aspiring cockerels...

...My Dark Cornish boys are extremely entertaining! I sit and watch them chest-bump and have a good ol' time. I feel very lucky to have not lost one. If we didn't have a 'one breed rule', I could see myself having these as a well as the Buckeyes!!!

It's actually a bit of a problem..coming from a somewhat cramped situation to a place with seemingly endless space. It could make me ignore the proverbial Chicken Math!!!!!!!

I like the activity level and athleticism of the hatchery Dark Cornish.

 

[Turk Raphael]

I like the activity level and athleticism of the hatchery Dark Cornish.

I wonder if the exhibition quality DCs would be less active or comely? These little guys are so friendly. I stick my hand into the brooder and many will come up to it and gently peck at me and a few seem to enjoy having their fat little necks to be scratched, right down their breasts. They are just a pleasure to be around and I can't imagine the ones bred for exhibition to be less sweet natured.

 

[gjensen]

I wonder if the exhibition quality DCs would be less active or comely? These little guys are so friendly. I stick my hand into the brooder and many will come up to it and gently peck at me and a few seem to enjoy having their fat little necks to be scratched, right down their breasts. They are just a pleasure to be around and I can't imagine the ones bred for exhibition to be less sweet natured.

I do not know enough about them to do them any justice.

 

[seventreesfarm]

That was explained well Arielle.

And I agree that a good typed male, that produces good offspring, and has good fertility later into his life is especially valuable. I suspect that the all in and all out mindset, leads to more of the same. A cock bird is half of the flock, so to speak. His influence is huge. We should certainly put emphasis on the hens, but we should pay special attention to a good male. You cannot do that, or identify who he is, if they are replaced every year. You just cannot do it. You replace him when you know you have better, and it has been proven that you have better, and he has outlived is usefulness.

I feel similarly about the hens. You cannot possibly have properly evaluated a female until she has completely gone through her first laying cycle (pullet year), and started back into lay for her hen year. That is a good time to select who is going into the breeding pens. And the good ones do not get replaced by pullets every cycle. It may be decided that certain individual hens are held on to for quite some time.

I believe that flock improvement is a series of small victories. We want every generation to be better, but what helps us the most is the individuals that we identify from year to year. These individuals are the small victories, and the birds we want to emphasize. We may decide that we want their influence to span more than a single generation.

This game is not a race, and it requires patience. Someone that I used to pay a lot of attention to, often emphasized the patience that this hobby required.

Some people have a project and they need to cover some ground and get what they have stabilized. I get that, but their comes a point where things begin to level out, and the progress comes slower. Then they are in the same boat as the rest of us, and the concepts become just as important to them as it is to us.

I keep looking at my flock, especially the related birds of multiple generations. I can see the influence of the couple of hens I started with in their daughters, and now in their granddaughters. They are getting closer to what I want, and I'm getting better at tracking development so I can plan the next matings. This year I am selecting for tail shape, and the underlying pelvic structure. Next season I will be selecting for better head shape. Also trap nesting and breeding the steady layers, especially the one that lay best over the winter. I'm also working to find good olive egger cockerels and have saved back two superior ones from this season's hatches.
It does take time to figure out a direction and start working towards it, but once the parameters are in place, things start to happen.