BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I certainly could, but I just don't have the stomach for it. I would if I could. The other issue I have with Malines, is that they're rare & I feel outcrossing will add some much needed vigor. Sure, I could just raise straight Buckeyes or Chanteclers, but in my research I've found they don't get up to the size of Malines. I think if I play my cards right, this cross will eventually give me what I want. A no fuss, sustainable meat bird that will lay better in winter.

Do what you please, and have fun. I did not want to discourage you. I just thought of the money and work. It will take a few to get the combs tightened up. That and they are rare.

 

[Dead Rabbit]

The gentleman who made this statement was well traveled and had a lifetime of experience with fowl. He was highly respected in certain circles. Not only for his fowl but his accomplishments in shows.
When he was telling me this I just politely nodded and kept listening. Thinking similar thoughts as what you stated. Over the years I have dwelt on his statement. I'm not nearly as traveled as he was. I've never been further west than just over the river that separates WVA and Ohio. I've been up and down the east coast few times. Mainly south. When he spoke of north eastern states he was referring to states that were true north. Like ny and up. Not mid Atlantic states like va and nc.
Over time my observations are as follows:
The stronger more robust fowl I've ever owned came from the colder states. Like wva and Ohio. I did ship some in from Vermont one time. Marvelous fowl. Strong healthy and they were ornamental froo froo birds too.
The smaller yet healthy but frailer built fowl I've had came from the south. One line in particular came from the southern tip of Alabama. I've been on many breeders yards through out the south and I saw similar results. Healthy birds but smaller. I'm from the eastern tidewater part of va. The climate is similar to the southern climate. Very hot and very high humidity. Also similar results. The environment there foster diseases and parasites. Pox is bad because of the amount of Mosquitos prevalent near the swampy areas
I brought some oegame bantams from back home here to the mtns. They struggled in the winter. Couldn't take the cold or snow. Even susseive generations. Similar results from ones I shipped from SC. but when I crossed them on some seramas of all things , that were from this area the f1 and 2 generations were like little tanks. Indestructible.

This is all from mere observations. Not scientific studies ...which I don't always put much stock in, ....I still can't convince myself the original mentioned gentleman was correct but I now do believe there is some small merit to what he said. IMO I think breeding techniques and caliber of brood stock carries the heaviest load. Environmental pressures also have a determining factor too. I'd be interested in hearing observations from those who are at the other extremes of the geographic spectrum. I'd like to hear some from the south who are familiar with northern fowl and someone from the north who have experiences with southern fowl.

Just my thoughts on "if it was me".....and I wanted to resurrect a breed of fowl back to its former glory, I'd bring a pair or two pairs from the south and the same from from the north. Keep them pure from a geographical standpoint but also have a couple yards set up for crossing the two different families, creating separate individual lines. My guess in a few seasons I'd see enough difference in said lines I could start culling out lines and concentrate on the better lines. You have pure fowl of so and so breed but coming from different environments and different breeders yards you will actually have a hybrid vigor.

 

[Shellz]

Do what you please, and have fun. I did not want to discourage you. I just thought of the money and work. It will take a few to get the combs tightened up. That and they are rare.

Thank you, I will.

I enjoy reading your contributions here as well as others. I understand where you're coming from about the combs. Not discouraged...I have the ear of a biologist/poultry breeder who has taken an interest in my project.

Many thanks to Ron for starting this thread. It's informative, all-inclusive format is a breath of fresh air!

 

[gjensen]

I remember a discussion on another thread (might have been one of Blosl's) about buying and shipping east to west or west to east or south to north or north to south. I could see how one bad experience could travel word of mouth and become ingrained. Is there any evidence to back up where we should buy? I have a hard enough time just finding one good breeder willing to ship my preferred breed. This is one of the reasons I put the Ohio Nationals on my bucket list.

changing the subject:
I am becoming a dual purpose guy and acknowledging that I am not truly productive in meat or eggs but trying to achieve a productive balance. I also am beginning to see that my goal "should be" to improve my breed of choice and not keep looking for the best dual purpose breed.

Don't limit your options based on location. Get the 'best" that you can, wherever you can. The only way shipping north to south, or south to north would make a difference if it was from Canada that had not gotten above 80, and then sent them to Columbia SC where it was 101 and 60% humidity. The initial drastic change to an extreme would be tough to tolerate. For any bird. You are not going to ship them in that kind of weather anyways. It would not make a difference the other way. Spring and fall are good times to ship. Mid winter, ship South. Mid summer, ship North. You get the idea.

The most likely problem would be a disease pressure on your poultry yard getting the newcomer sick, or vice versa. Then you were smart enough to quarantine the new birds for a few weeks to a month.

Improving your breed of choice is certainly your goal. There is no best. There is only a best possible for you. The only way you are going to improve them is to get to know them like the back of your hand. the big things and little thing. Know their type, and why they have the type that they do. Know it all.
Bob used to recommend printing an "ideal" picture and putting at the "poultry shed". I thought the emphasis on a constant reminder starting out was good advice, no matter how it was done. You want that image in your head, and the feel in your hands. You want to develop a sense of what they should feel like to.
A simple color like your Australorps allow you to focus on other than color first. In difficult colors, you can't just ignore it, even in the beginning. Some colors are hard to fix once they have went the wrong way for a time.

There is no way someone can intelligently breed anything without looking at the birds and saying what is wrong or right. Then handling them and realizing the same.

 

[Dead Rabbit]

I love the idea and the appearance of the white Chanticleer. I've tossed around the idea more than once in getting some of this breed. But I don't generally have the time or space I once did. Their egg production is way to low for what I need

 

[gjensen]

The gentleman who made this statement was well traveled and had a lifetime of experience with fowl. He was highly respected in certain circles. Not only for his fowl but his accomplishments in shows.
When he was telling me this I just politely nodded and kept listening. Thinking similar thoughts as what you stated. Over the years I have dwelt on his statement. I'm not nearly as traveled as he was. I've never been further west than just over the river that separates WVA and Ohio. I've been up and down the east coast few times. Mainly south. When he spoke of north eastern states he was referring to states that were true north. Like ny and up. Not mid Atlantic states like va and nc.
Over time my observations are as follows:
The stronger more robust fowl I've ever owned came from the colder states. Like wva and Ohio. I did ship some in from Vermont one time. Marvelous fowl. Strong healthy and they were ornamental froo froo birds too.
The smaller yet healthy but frailer built fowl I've had came from the south. One line in particular came from the southern tip of Alabama. I've been on many breeders yards through out the south and I saw similar results. Healthy birds but smaller. I'm from the eastern tidewater part of va. The climate is similar to the southern climate. Very hot and very high humidity. Also similar results. The environment there foster diseases and parasites. Pox is bad because of the amount of Mosquitos prevalent near the swampy areas
I brought some oegame bantams from back home here to the mtns. They struggled in the winter. Couldn't take the cold or snow. Even susseive generations. Similar results from ones I shipped from SC. but when I crossed them on some seramas of all things , that were from this area the f1 and 2 generations were like little tanks. Indestructible.

This is all from mere observations. Not scientific studies ...which I don't always put much stock in, ....I still can't convince myself the original mentioned gentleman was correct but I now do believe there is some small merit to what he said. IMO I think breeding techniques and caliber of brood stock carries the heaviest load. Environmental pressures also have a determining factor too. I'd be interested in hearing observations from those who are at the other extremes of the geographic spectrum. I'd like to hear some from the south who are familiar with northern fowl and someone from the north who have experiences with southern fowl.

Just my thoughts on "if it was me".....and I wanted to resurrect a breed of fowl back to its former glory, I'd bring a pair or two pairs from the south and the same from from the north. Keep them pure from a geographical standpoint but also have a couple yards set up for crossing the two different families, creating separate individual lines. My guess in a few seasons I'd see enough difference in said lines I could start culling out lines and concentrate on the better lines. You have pure fowl of so and so breed but coming from different environments and different breeders yards you will actually have a hybrid vigor.

I still do not buy it. I do agree that the environment could play a part in selection. Just the notion that birds in the South are weaker, or from the North stronger is silly. That is carrying the notion too far. It is making more of something where there is nothing there to make anything of. It would make more sense if you shipped birds to Tropical Africa, or to South America. They would not be equipped for the new disease pressures, and it still could be done. South America is full of American and English breeds.

Any isolation in populations is going to make them genetically different. The biggest factor being the difference in the ones doing the selection, and that the population is going in different directions. I can carry two populations in two different directions right here in my own yard. When I crossed them years down the road, I would see some "hybrid" vigor.

 

[bnjrob]

I remember a discussion on another thread (might have been one of Blosl's) about buying and shipping east to west or west to east or south to north or north to south. I could see how one bad experience could travel word of mouth and become ingrained. Is there any evidence to back up where we should buy? I have a hard enough time just finding one good breeder willing to ship my preferred breed. This is one of the reasons I put the Ohio Nationals on my bucket list.

changing the subject:
I am becoming a dual purpose guy and acknowledging that I am not truly productive in meat or eggs but trying to achieve a productive balance. I also am beginning to see that my goal "should be" to improve my breed of choice and not keep looking for the best dual purpose breed.

That comment from Bob was relating more to weather conditions in various locations and applicable mainly to the first birds that you acquire because each bird comes from a flock that has been acclimated to the weather patterns of a region. Without special care, if you take a bird from South Florida up to Canada in November, that bird is going to have a very difficult time adapting to the cold and is more likely to have a problem with getting acclimated to the frigid temps. Which will lower its resistance to disease and it's tolerance for cold - so if anyone is likely to keel over from the cold, it would be that bird and not the birds that born and raised in that location.

But with the correct husbandry and reaching a good balance between providing extra measures that you normally wouldn't take with birds you already have, while not babying the new birds to the point that they become dependent on the extra care and don't acclimate to their new environment, you can move birds to extremes with good results. And once they have had a year or so on your place, they should be ok and be able to weather the next extreme season you have without extra pampering. And their offspring should be able to do so as well.

Here in TX, we have crazy extremes in weather where it's 85 one day and by 0600 the next morning, the temp is in the 20s with a wind chill near zero. And the majority of the time we have a lot of humidity, especially in the summer with temps over 100 most days. So our birds have a lot of weird weather to get accustomed to and we have not had a problem with the first birds we got that came from farther south in TX where it is warmer in winter and summer. And we didn't have a problem with our first birds that came from Michigan where it's a lot more mild in summer. Husbandry is the key. A friend of mine in Maine has a hen that hatched from our flock - while her birds that came from Northern flocks and breeds that are supposed to be cold tolerant, are hiding in the barn, the Java hen that came from our flock is out foraging in the ice and snow - she had to send me photos to show me. That hen has also been laying, even though much of the time her birds have been restricted to the barn this winter, where even the inside barn temps are below freezing and they don't have a lot of light.

Husbandry. Do it right and you can overcome many challenging situations with your birds.

 

[hellbender]

AAAHHHHH, Wonderful West Virginia weather. First one thing and then another. We had a total accumulation of about 25 inches of snow then, "BAM'...fast warm up. Now there are flood WARNINGS for the biggest part of the state and other states around us.

One thing for certain, If we ever get flooded from creeks and rivers over flowing, there will be no hope for any major city to our South and likely far to the north as well.

The temps are supposed to get down to positive 3 to 6 over night, so that will put a serious plug on the floods, at least for one week...In the mean time, the snow pack should melt off gradually and the relative high temp for next Sunday shouldn't bring down apocalyptical forecasts for our area.

I know why cities and towns are built on rivers but I have never figured out why someone would build a house in harm's way. In West Virginia, a 'high spot' can almost certainly be found upon which to build, even if it doesn't have the best riparian view...

 

[DesertChic]

Okay, I know I'm changing topics here and undoubtedly asking many of you to repeat something you've probably already posted multiple times, but....at what point do you typically butcher dual purpose birds for broilers and roasters. I've been battling a migraine for three days now and all the numbers I've been recording on everything are starting to get a bit jumbled in my head. If you can supply me with some general guidelines and age ranges, I'd really appreciate it. (And I promise to copy it into a specific word document so I need never bother you with this question again.

)

 

[ronott1]

Okay, I know I'm changing topics here and undoubtedly asking many of you to repeat something you've probably already posted multiple times, but....at what point do you typically butcher dual purpose birds for broilers and roasters. I've been battling a migraine for three days now and all the numbers I've been recording on everything are starting to get a bit jumbled in my head. If you can supply me with some general guidelines and age ranges, I'd really appreciate it. (And I promise to copy it into a specific word document so I need never bother you with this question again.

)

The answer is that they are your chickens so you can process them any time you want to.