Breeding related chickens

[LindaB220]

Thank you Karen. The link to 7 stages had a link to an article on epigenetics. This article explains so much more than I did!

And here you go! http://www.healtoxics.org/5news_htm/news50.htm

Thanks, I transferred that straight to FB. It needs to be shown.

 

[tridentk9]

Thanks, I transferred that straight to FB.  It needs to be shown.   

It happens in humans too. A search on ScienceDaily will bring up numerous articles.

 

[Matt1616]

I'm not nearly as intelligent as you guys but I will offer this...If line/inbreeding was that detrimental then I can assure you there would be no show lines of poultry left because people have been line/inbreeding for well over 100 years in this fancy. If it destroyed the healthiness of poultry like suggested these lines of bird would have ceased to exist many, many years ago.

Matt

 

[gjensen]

I'm not nearly as intelligent as you guys but I will offer this...If line/inbreeding was that detrimental then I can assure you there would be no show lines of poultry left because people have been line/inbreeding for well over 100 years in this fancy. If it destroyed the healthiness of poultry like suggested these lines of bird would have ceased to exist many, many years ago.

Matt

Or production fowl, performance fowl . . . . . Heck there would be no livestock breeds at all, of any kind. We would still be hunting and gathering. And probably inbreeding.

 

[tridentk9]

]

The most productive laying strains of poultry in the world are closely bred, and they make up the crosses that we have in the commercial industry. Productivity and livability is very high before the cross. More and more they are being bred for a tolerance to certain disease pressures like mycoplasma.

The poultry industry now runs genome tests on their flocks to check for heterozygosity. It is of enough concern in the poultry and egg industry that they fund studies and run tests to check for levels of inbreeding. The commercial hen has a short lifespan. Though they produce 250+ eggs/year, they are usually culled by 80 weeks.. By the way, the first 300 egg/year layer and the first 1000 eggs/lifetime were both crosses from the same breeder. His studies showed that many of the physical traits assumed to do with laying ability really don't matter.

Tolerence to disease takes a gene, the MHC proteins, the environment and the disease load, they all have a bearing. The gene doesn't totally stop the risk, but it lowers the risk. The other factors listed also are needed.The same is true of mycoplasma in chickens. Who knows- it may end up being like Sickle Cell Anemia- one copy confers resistance to malaria, two copies confers Sickle Cell Anemia.

Even those who have different short and long term goals still should believe in selection of breeding stock. It mayl be a different choice than yours but it will still be selection. I compare breed or style likes to ice cream flavors. Different people have different favorite flavors. Doesn't mean the other flavors are bad, they're just not your favorite. And on occasion you'll even try and like a different flavor. Or change favorites. To dislike someone else's choice because it's not the same as yours is rude and self-limiting.

" A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.”
― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince

 

[tridentk9]

It doesn't matter to me what breeding system someone else uses as long as the pluses AND minuses are noted. Every system has both good and bad attributes. The balance though has been sorely lacking, it is most disturbing that educators are so biased and unable to explain their POV. Most disturbing. The comments instead are answered with a fervor akin to a religion and attacking the heretics. When questioned, still no answer just a superstitous repeat of the same theory.

Anecdotal stories of health, fertility, longevity and reproduction levels is not yet evidence. It's a point to start the study but not an end. What percentage of chicks live to reproduce? To 3 years of age? 5? 10? If only 10% are considered acceptable to breed, the actual numbers must be lower.

Anytime one aspect is considered of primary importance, other aspects are lowered. A "Jack-of-All-Trades" has lowered levels of ability in all areas. The full quote is "Jack-of-All-Trades, Master-of-None"

Just my point of view. I'd love discussions but hate the "just because I said so" answers. Yes, I do ask questions. Sometimes right then, sometimes later as I mull it over. Just because I do something differently does not make either of us right/wrong- just different. Just because I ask a question does not mean I disagree.

 

[3riverschick]

Ok, I am through discussing all this epigenetics silliness as it pertains to our chicken breeding.
Tho it has value somewhere, it has no value to us in our breeding operations. I know all this stuff about epigenetics that was posted above and I still state it has no value for us.
Now, if we don't get engaged with epigenetics, how do we enhance the quality of our birds genetic potential?
I am going to tell you based on 10,000 hours of research over 4 yrs. (1998-2002) resulting in the development of a successful kindred protocol in canines. The Bellwether Neonate Protocol in canines.
The object of our efforts is to make the most of our chicks genetic potential One f the ebst ways to do this is by giving them the very best support we can during the 1st 3 weeks when so much growth is going on. The neonate period. I call it the Neonate Period because that is the period they get chick grit.
The essence of a baby chick is the G.I. tract. It's where the rubber meets the road. Health dwells there. So does the potential for best development of the body systems. And the potential for a large healthy gizzard. One of the best ways to help a chick develop it's body systems to its genetic potential is by helping the most nutrients get absorbed thru the G.I. tract and thus to the body systems. We all know the nutrients chicks need to thrive. So how do we effect better uptake of those nutrients?
We give them a carrier. Encourage the uptake potential of the G.I. tract. How. I have had confirmed success over the years using Bovidr Labs products on my collies and poultry.
These formulas are made by a company which specializes in emergency nutritional supplements over many species. Their products, tho species specific also meet the scientific demands for a universal dosage. I have had good success in my collies with Pet and Goat and Beef formulas. And in my poultry with the Pet, Goat and Poultry formulas. Bovidr Labs formulas do not need to be digested. They mainline directly to the bloodstream. Supplementing the nutrition available thru th G.I. tract. The more nutrients the body gets, the better its systems work . Energy equals digestive potential. The better opportunity for the chick to digest the rations the breeder is providing.
Onward and upward, We have provided supplemental nutrition, now we need to see to the proper flora population in the G,I, tract. The sooner and most properly we can get those flora ratios established, the better the chick can digest its rations. That mean "biotics". Hopefully a mix of pre and pro biotics. Probably the most high tech way tp provide that would be Fastrack Direct Fed Microbial Supplement. However, it is expensive and the one of the tenets of this letter is that the program must provide the proper parts as inexpensively as possible. Greek Yogurt wound answer just as well. Proper flora population ratios inhibit the establishment of harmful pathogens in the G,I, tract.
Next we come to the gizzard. Proper development of the gizzard is important for enhancing the production potential of the adult birds. It is not so much we see a difference as they grow. Instead we see notable differences in their adult production, whether in laying or as meat. Granite grit it best because it is not softened and its edges are not rounded off my the acid in the bird's gizzard.
One could substitute other forms of grit , however, extensive scientific research proves granite grit is best. I use Gran-I-Grit and here is their feeding schedule. Chick sized granite grit is fed from 48-60 hours old on to the end of 3 weeks. Youth sized "Grower" grit is fed from week 4 thru the end of week 7. Adult sized "Developer" grit is fed from week 8 thru the lifetime. Research proves that following this protocol can increase egg production up to 20%. Because the development of the superior gizzard allows the bird to digest more of its ration, providing more nutrients to make more eggs. In meat birds, studies showed that feeding grit was not needed if the birds were being raised on mash only. However, during the finishing period, if the birds were being fed hard grains in addition to their mash, providing granite grit noticeably increased weight put on the birds. As opposed to finishing the birds on plain mash or mash and hard grains without granite grit.
And that is how you do it. Easy Peasey. The more nutrients the bird can uptake, the more nutrients it has available to create a better foundation upon which the immune system will mature. The most proper flora ratios in the G.I. tract help keep harmful pathogens from becoming established. Scientifically developing the gizzard sets the stage for better adult production.
As far as any epigenetic changes, they will be met well enough by advocating for the body systems in this way. No more thought needs to be given to the epigenetics of it all at the number of birds we will be breeding. Proper management techniques, wise selection, high quality stock, proper breeding systems, an internal developmental protocol like above is all you need.
Online references for further study: will add them in a bit. I have to look them up again.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[tridentk9]

Yogurt? Are you kidding? Do you realize that dogs don't have the capacity to utilize the two most common probiotics in yogurt, Streptococcus thermophilus and Lactobacillus delbrueckii, subspecies bulgaricus?. Even if the probiotic is useful in that species, different problems need different solutions; different probiotics, different amounts. As far as prebiotics, they are probiotic specific.

In any conversation a classic animal breeder has with anyone in the Biodiversity Movement, there will come a moment when the Biodiversity advocate will dig in their heels and say, "No more".

Ok, I am through discussing all this epigenetics silliness as it pertains to our chicken breeding. Tho it has value somewhere, it has no value to us in our breeding operations. I know all this stuff about epigenetics that was posted above and I still state it has no value for us.

It may have value to others. Maybe now, maybe later, maybe never- you can learn from negatives as much as from positives. But digging in your heels and saying "No more" is not useful. Smacks of censorship or a "My way or the Highway" mindset.

 

[3riverschick]

Yogurt? Are you kidding? Do you realize that dogs don't have the capacity to utilize the two most common probiotics in yogurt, Streptococcus thermophilus and Lactobacillus delbrueckii, subspecies bulgaricus?. Even if the probiotic is useful in that species, different problems need different solutions; different probiotics, different amounts. As far as prebiotics, they are probiotic specific.

It may have value to others. Maybe now, maybe later, maybe never- you can learn from negatives as much as from positives. But digging in your heels and saying "No more" is not useful. Smacks of censorship or a "My way or the Highway" mindset.

I didn't not use yogurt on my collies. I used Fastrack Canine Microbial Supplement
instead. With poulry it is different and a much cheaper, acceptable option is Greek
Yogurt.
Karen

 

[gjensen]

]
The poultry industry now runs genome tests on their flocks to check for heterozygosity. It is of enough concern in the poultry and egg industry that they fund studies and run tests to check for levels of inbreeding. The commercial hen has a short lifespan. Though they produce 250+ eggs/year, they are usually culled by 80 weeks.. By the way, the first 300 egg/year layer and the first 1000 eggs/lifetime were both crosses from the same breeder. His studies showed that many of the physical traits assumed to do with laying ability really don't matter.

Tolerence to disease takes a gene, the MHC proteins, the environment and the disease load, they all have a bearing. The gene doesn't totally stop the risk, but it lowers the risk. The other factors listed also are needed.The same is true of mycoplasma in chickens. Who knows- it may end up being like Sickle Cell Anemia- one copy confers resistance to malaria, two copies confers Sickle Cell Anemia.

Even those who have different short and long term goals still should believe in selection of breeding stock. It mayl be a different choice than yours but it will still be selection. I compare breed or style likes to ice cream flavors. Different people have different favorite flavors. Doesn't mean the other flavors are bad, they're just not your favorite. And on occasion you'll even try and like a different flavor. Or change favorites. To dislike someone else's choice because it's not the same as yours is rude and self-limiting.

Too close, is not in anyone's best interest. A breeder does not need tests to know whether or not he/she is getting too close. One, they are intimately familiar with their birds. The other is that there is that there is a large difference of scale. Everyone knows that they have short lifespans, but this is as much about economy as it is longevity. They have no incentive to concern themselves with longevity. Someone like myself would have that concern.

Again you were too eager to debate the point, that you missed the point. The point was how these lines were developed. Whether or not we like the result, the accomplishment is impressive and a result of line breeding.

The inheritance of disease tolerance is not a new revelation. It has been identified and studied in poultry flocks since the early 1900s. It has been practiced in poultry flocks for hundreds of years more.
There are lines developed that are resistant to Mycoplasma sp., but as we know there is huge variation among strains.

None of this is new, and is commonly understood. My points were how progress is made, and progress cannot be continue to be made unless there is some form of line breeding. Breeding is having a goal and trying to get there. It is not haphazard, progress does not happen by chance, and it cannot be done always bringing something new in. Anything else is not breeding.