Breeding related chickens

[LindaB220]

Ok, I am through discussing all this epigenetics silliness as it pertains to our chicken breeding.
Tho it has value somewhere, it has no value to us in our breeding operations. I know all this stuff about epigenetics that was posted above and I still state it has no value for us.
Now, if we don't get engaged with epigenetics, how do we enhance the quality of our birds genetic potential?
I am going to tell you based on 10,000 hours of research over 4 yrs. (1998-2002) resulting in the development of a successful kindred protocol in canines. The Bellwether Neonate Protocol in canines.
The object of our efforts is to make the most of our chicks genetic potential One f the ebst ways to do this is by giving them the very best support we can during the 1st 3 weeks when so much growth is going on. The neonate period. I call it the Neonate Period because that is the period they get chick grit.
The essence of a baby chick is the G.I. tract. It's where the rubber meets the road. Health dwells there. So does the potential for best development of the body systems. And the potential for a large healthy gizzard. One of the best ways to help a chick develop it's body systems to its genetic potential is by helping the most nutrients get absorbed thru the G.I. tract and thus to the body systems. We all know the nutrients chicks need to thrive. So how do we effect better uptake of those nutrients?
We give them a carrier. Encourage the uptake potential of the G.I. tract. How. I have had confirmed success over the years using Bovidr Labs products on my collies and poultry.
These formulas are made by a company which specializes in emergency nutritional supplements over many species. Their products, tho species specific also meet the scientific demands for a universal dosage. I have had good success in my collies with Pet and Goat and Beef formulas. And in my poultry with the Pet, Goat and Poultry formulas. Bovidr Labs formulas do not need to be digested. They mainline directly to the bloodstream. Supplementing the nutrition available thru th G.I. tract. The more nutrients the body gets, the better its systems work . Energy equals digestive potential. The better opportunity for the chick to digest the rations the breeder is providing.
Onward and upward, We have provided supplemental nutrition, now we need to see to the proper flora population in the G,I, tract. The sooner and most properly we can get those flora ratios established, the better the chick can digest its rations. That mean "biotics". Hopefully a mix of pre and pro biotics. Probably the most high tech way tp provide that would be Fastrack Direct Fed Microbial Supplement. However, it is expensive and the one of the tenets of this letter is that the program must provide the proper parts as inexpensively as possible. Greek Yogurt wound answer just as well. Proper flora population ratios inhibit the establishment of harmful pathogens in the G,I, tract.
Next we come to the gizzard. Proper development of the gizzard is important for enhancing the production potential of the adult birds. It is not so much we see a difference as they grow. Instead we see notable differences in their adult production, whether in laying or as meat. Granite grit it best because it is not softened and its edges are not rounded off my the acid in the bird's gizzard.
One could substitute other forms of grit , however, extensive scientific research proves granite grit is best. I use Gran-I-Grit and here is their feeding schedule. Chick sized granite grit is fed from 48-60 hours old on to the end of 3 weeks. Youth sized "Grower" grit is fed from week 4 thru the end of week 7. Adult sized "Developer" grit is fed from week 8 thru the lifetime. Research proves that following this protocol can increase egg production up to 20%. Because the development of the superior gizzard allows the bird to digest more of its ration, providing more nutrients to make more eggs. In meat birds, studies showed that feeding grit was not needed if the birds were being raised on mash only. However, during the finishing period, if the birds were being fed hard grains in addition to their mash, providing granite grit noticeably increased weight put on the birds. As opposed to finishing the birds on plain mash or mash and hard grains without granite grit.
And that is how you do it. Easy Peasey. The more nutrients the bird can uptake, the more nutrients it has available to create a better foundation upon which the immune system will mature. The most proper flora ratios in the G.I. tract help keep harmful pathogens from becoming established. Scientifically developing the gizzard sets the stage for better adult production.
As far as any epigenetic changes, they will be met well enough by advocating for the body systems in this way. No more thought needs to be given to the epigenetics of it all at the number of birds we will be breeding. Proper management techniques, wise selection, high quality stock, proper breeding systems, an internal developmental protocol like above is all you need.
Online references for further study: will add them in a bit. I have to look them up again.
Best Regards,
Karen

Outstanding post. It's one of the things that you share so well. I know that you research so extensively. Usually I download all the sites and books that you mention. Kudos.

 

[3riverschick]

Seriously, I am a huge fan of the Fastrack Products and used them extensively on my collies.
http://doubledranch.tripod.com/poultry.html
But in poultry, there is a cheaper way with the Greek yogurt.
Best,
Karen

 

[tridentk9]

 
 
 My points were how progress is made, and progress cannot be continue to be made unless there is some form of line breeding. Breeding is having a goal and trying to get there. It is not haphazard, progress does not happen by chance, and it cannot be done always bringing something new in. Anything else is not breeding.

First, this is opinion. It might even be a hypothesis if you could come up with a way to test it. But it is an opinion.

Hmm, after 100 plus years progress is still so difficult to come by. Maybe the system needs work?

I understood that the commercial businesses started off with inbred lines. And as they've increased their knowledge they've changed their focus and are working for less homozygous lines.

 

[3riverschick]

unless there is some form of line breeding. Breeding is having a goal and trying to get

always bringing something new in. Anything else is not breeding.

Trident writes:
First, this is opinion. It might even be a hypothesis if you could come up with a way to test it.
But it is an opinion. Hmm, after 100 plus years progress is still so difficult to come by. Maybe
the system needs work?
Reply by Karen
It is not opinion, it is fact. Volumes of proof have been written by game fowl breeders
over the last 100 years. Let's take a look at a book by an elite veteran poultry man.
Elite because he created successful new breed. A teacher who had a gift for making
complex poultry breeding simple for the beginner. He could often be found at poultry
shows explaining the subject to a semi-circle of learners . After 40+ years of breeding
poultry, he set down the proven breeding laws in this book. Not opinion, fact. If we do
this, then that will be the result.
I love facts. They form a firm foundation for action and can be adjusted later if new
knowledge requires it. Opinions and theories always leave one in doubt about results...
and how to change things if they are proven wrong.
The first part of this book is about in and linebreeding. They are defined and a 100+
year old plan is explained. It has been successful across multiples specie. Within
10 generations, using wise selection and proper management, this plan will produce
cookie cutter generations with robust heath.
Personally, I think this plan is successful because it has several different breeding
systems in it. Inbreeding, Linebreeding, female family inbreeding, close family breeding,
percentage of line inheritance breeding. Any lapses in results or expectations from just
one form of breeding have been over- lapped by other systems of breeding. I wish
Wid Card was in this discussion. I think you and he would get along famously.
This is a small 55 page book. A treasure of distilled knowledge.
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. c.1
by Card, Wetherell Henry.
Published 1912
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
Chapter 4 " The Breeders and Fanciers " is very interesting.
Best,
Karen

 

[Chris09]

In livestock both the term inbreeding and the term line breeding are used.
I know that in genetic terminology it is the "same" and that inbreeding is the mating of two animals who are related to each other but lets face it all animals are inbred one way or another.

 

[tridentk9]

What I meant is...in the "show poultry" world it is considered line breeding if you breed mother to sons and father to daughters but it is inbreeding if you breed brothers and sisters.
Matt

Interesting. While highly unlikely, it is possible that two full siblings do not share any genes. Highly unlikely but potentially possible. Isn't that the reason given that inbreeding tightly is so acceptable in poultry- that the numbers give the breeder greater variety in the genes inherited? Yet offspring will share half of it's genes with a parent.

 

[tridentk9]

[COLOR=000000]In livestock both the term inbreeding and the term line breeding are used. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]I know that in genetic terminology it is the "same" and that inbreeding is the mating of two animals who are related to each other but lets face it all animals are inbred one way or another. [/COLOR]

Linebreeding is considered too imprecise of a term in the study of genetics. It would be similar to using the term autopsy when discussing a bird necropsy. It may be used by the general public, it may even be preferred by some groups, it will be understood but it is not correct. Yes, I know that necropsy is typically used *here* - the point is that *some* groups of people use autopsy.

 

[gjensen]

Interesting. While highly unlikely, it is possible that two full siblings do not share any genes. Highly unlikely but potentially possible. Isn't that the reason given that inbreeding tightly is so acceptable in poultry- that the numbers give the breeder greater variety in the genes inherited? Yet offspring will share half of it's genes with a parent.

You are assuming that the offspring inherited half of the genes of the parent?

Inbreeding so tightly in poultry specifically? Are breeds of dogs, horses, etc. bred any less tight?

What makes you assume that the birds are so inbred that they are unhealthy? Where does the assumption come that line breeding has been detrimental? I would say that line breeding and the creation of these supposed inbred breeds, has given the species a very diverse gene pool.

 

[Chris09]

Linebreeding is considered too imprecise of a term in the study of genetics. It would be similar to using the term autopsy when discussing a bird necropsy. It may be used by the general public, it may even be preferred by some groups, it will be understood but it is not correct. Yes, I know that necropsy is typically used *here* - the point is that *some* groups of people use autopsy.

Well I know that there were two maybe more people one here with very extensive background in genetics and both used the term Line-breeding and it wasn't too imprecise for them to use.

Most people that breed livestock/ chickens and understand the difference between inbreeding and line-breeding go by a layout similar to this.

Inbreeding --
Brother/ Sister (the closest form)
Sire/ Daughter
Dam/ Son
Half-Brother/ Half-Sister

Line-Breeding --
Cousins (with at least one grandparent in common)
Nephew/ Aunt
Nice/ Uncle
G. Grandson/ G. Granddaughter
Grandson/ Granddaughter
Grand Sire/ Granddaughter
Grand Dam/ Grandson

Now other than Inbreeding, Line-Breeding you also have "In and In-breeding" and "In and Out breeding" but for some reason I don't believe that you could understand the differences between thous either.

 

[Chris09]

if inbreeding works so well and after 100-200 years of inbreeding, do the breeds still need improvement, some are in very bad shape and there are still deleterious alleles? Shouldn't all that be worked out? I can guess part of the answer but it's your statements and breeding scheme.

Quote: Inbreeding has been around far longer than 200 years.
Quote:
Yes.
Quote: Yes you are right, there are some breeds that are in very bad shape.
Quote: No, the reason being that there are more backyard breeders (and hatcheries) out there that have no idea what there doing and they should not be breeding animals for any reason than there are good breeders that know what there doing.