Breeding related chickens

[tridentk9]

Yes.
Yes you are right, there are some breeds that are in very bad shape.
No, the reason being that there are more backyard breeders (and hatcheries) out there that have no idea what there doing and they should not be breeding animals for any reason than there are good breeders that know what there doing. 

The 100-200 years was in response to a number George had used. The time span was not for a complete history of inbreeding, off the top of my head, it was for written books and records of breeds, why, how and results. George may remember it more precisely.

If the show breeders rarely use outside stock, and if so it's related birds, how do hatcheries and backyard breeders affect show stock?


***************************
As a side note, I'd recommend the National clubs start a drive for their breeders to write out what is to be done with their birds in case of death or inability to care for their flock. Write it out on highly visible paper (hot pink, flourescent orange, etc) and place it on refrigerator door or other highly visible place. First responders typically look there first. Their request only works if it's found in time. A will takes weeks if not months to settle by then the birds are gone one way or another. Send a copy to both recipient and a local contact. This may lessen some of the losses of flocks to the show fraternity. This is not just for older breeders, this should be for everyone.

 

[tridentk9]

Well I know that there were two maybe more people one here with very extensive background in genetics and both used the term Line-breeding and it wasn't too imprecise for them to use. 

Most people that breed livestock/ chickens and understand the difference between inbreeding and line-breeding go by a layout similar to this.

Inbreeding --
Brother/ Sister (the closest form)
Sire/ Daughter
Dam/ Son
Half-Brother/ Half-Sister
 
Line-Breeding --
Cousins (with at least one grandparent in common)
Nephew/ Aunt
Nice/ Uncle
G. Grandson/ G. Granddaughter
Grandson/ Granddaughter
Grand Sire/ Granddaughter
Grand Dam/ Grandson

Now other than Inbreeding, Line-Breeding you also have "In and In-breeding" and "In and Out breeding"  but for some reason I don't believe that you could understand the differences between thous either. 

LOL- yes, I do know what they mean. Knowing the usage of both correct terminology and colloquialisms are not mutually exclusive.

Technically, inbreeding is the mating of animals more closely related than the average relationship within the breed or population. When finding the Coefficient Of Inbreeding, it is desirable to calculate several generations.

"Individuals are considered to be biologically related when they have one or more common ancestors. For practical purposes, if two individuals have no common ancestor within the last five or six generations, they are considered unrelated." A friend always desires a minimum of 12 generations but he only works in one breed.

My initial comment about linebreeding is inbreeding can, IMO, still stand for this forum. Since it is a showbird breeder term with a specific meaning about a specific inbreeding, maybe it belongs among a forum of people who poke fun of others on the misuse of their terminology. As far as the average poultry owner, their family and friends will not care if it's linebreeding, in and in-breeding, spiral breeding, etc, To them it's all inbreeding. To use those unique terms is a try for political correctness so as not to shock your listener.

Well I know that there were two maybe more people one here with very extensive background in genetics and both used the term Line-breeding and it wasn't too imprecise for them to use. 

Most people that breed livestock/ chickens and understand the difference between inbreeding and line-breeding go by a layout similar to this.

Inbreeding --
Brother/ Sister (the closest form)
Sire/ Daughter
Dam/ Son
Half-Brother/ Half-Sister
 
Line-Breeding --
Cousins (with at least one grandparent in common)
Nephew/ Aunt
Nice/ Uncle
G. Grandson/ G. Granddaughter
Grandson/ Granddaughter
Grand Sire/ Granddaughter
Grand Dam/ Grandson

Now other than Inbreeding, Line-Breeding you also have "In and In-breeding" and "In and Out breeding"  but for some reason I don't believe that you could understand the differences between thous either. 

LOL- yes, I do know what they mean. Knowing the usage of both correct terminology and colloquialisms are not mutually exclusive.

Hmm, this is from the livestock division of the first university I looked at:

Technically, inbreeding is defined as the mating of animals more closely related than the average relationship within the breed or population concerned. Matings between animals less closely related than this, then, would constitute outbreeding.

ndividuals are considered to be biologically related when they have one or more common ancestors. For practical purposes, if two individuals have no common ancestor within the last five or six generations, they are considered unrelated.

My initial comment about linebreeding is inbreeding can, IMO, still stand for this forum. Since it is a showbird breeder term with a specific meaning about a specific inbreeding, maybe it belongs among those people who poke fun of others on the misuse of their terminology. As far as the average backyard poultry owner; they, their family and friends will not care if it's linebreeding, in and in-breeding, spiral breeding, etc, When you use your terms, you're trying for political correctness.

 

[Chris09]

The 100-200 years was in response to a number George had used. The time span was not for a complete history of inbreeding, off the top of my head, it was for written books and records of breeds, why, how and results. George may remember it more precisely.

If the show breeders rarely use outside stock, and if so it's related birds, how do hatcheries and backyard breeders affect show stock?

I'm just saying that Inbreeding and Line-breeding has been around far longer than that.

Quote: I must have misunderstood you post, because I thought you were talking about "the breed" itself and not just good breeding stock.

Now since you were talking about breeding stock and amusing your talking about a good breeder.
Yes you will get birds flaws in a closed flock, thats because there are always have hidden genes that can pop up from past breedings and past birds that make up a set breed.
I will see this, I have seen far less flaws in a closed flock that in a open flock.

 

[3riverschick]

Originally Posted by tridentk9


LOL- the correct term is inbreeding

I understand incorrect terminology bothers you.
The term line breeding is just a PC form of the term.
-----------
You did not take time to read the Card book. I told you to for a reason. If you had, you
would know that linebreeding in poultry is just a new term for outbreeding. If you read
the book, you would know what outbreeding is. (outbreeding is not outcrossing) I told you
to read the book because it is a classic, very educational and will clear up some of the
misconceptions you have about breeding poultry. If you haven't time to read the
beginning, just read Ch. 4. Tho you will get a lot more out of it if you read it cover to cover.
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Interesting. While highly unlikely, it is possible that two full siblings do not share any genes. Highly unlikely but potentially possible. Isn't that the reason given that inbreeding tightly is so acceptable in poultry- that the numbers give the breeder greater variety in the genes inherited? Yet offspring will share half of it's genes with a parent.

No that's not the reason. The large number of sex-linked
genes and the wide genetic base make the difference in poultry . Sure large numbers help, but they are not the
determining factor.
Karen.
Here are several books your inquiring mind will find very interesting. Ms. Derry has a wonderful turn of the pen when writing about the history of animal breeding. She has had published a total of 6 books. These 3 books are listed in
order of year published:

Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies and Arabian Horses since 1800 (2003)
By Margaret E. Derry

http://www.poplarlane.net/books/ani...e-collies-and-arabian-horses-since-1800-2003/

Art and Science in Breeding: Creating Better Chickens
By Margaret E. Derry
http://www.utppublishing.com/Art-and-Science-in-Breeding-Creating-Better-Chickens.html

and coming in Nov. 2014:

Masterminding Nature: The Breeding of Animals, 1750-2010
By Margaret E. Derry
http://www.utppublishing.com/Masterminding-Nature-The-Breeding-of-Animals-1750-2010.html

 

[tridentk9]

Originally Posted


I would posit that in the beginning of a learning curve current books are more important. A major learning theory is that what you learn first is what you remember or do when stressed. Consider Matthew Broderick driving in Ireland. Without current knowledge I would not know what terms, husbandry, medical care, standards, etc had changed. My eye would want to see the birds of that time now.After all they were good enough for Card, but should they, or even would they, win under current judges? You've even conceded that some things have changed from the book and can be ignored. Others have said the current birds are different. I would also guess that if his works are so vital that learning breeding theories is impossible without them, they would appear in current literature.

 

[sumi]

I think we are done here. Thank you for your participation everyone.