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- #501
Yesterday was your birthday?
Happy happy birthday to you and the baby!
It was indeed! Thank you
Breeding silkied Cochin bantams to the Standard
- Thread starter pipdzipdnreadytogo
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It was indeed! Thank you
- Thread starter
- #502
I wanted to do a bit of a write-up after a discussion I had with my sister the other day. She and my niece and nephew went on an out-of-state vacation a few weeks back and visited some friends and family while they were at it. Well, one friend has a relative with chickens who, while discussing the birds, apparently told my sister that I'm just making up that silkied Cochins are a thing and I just want people to believe they're not a mix. Phew. This person also bragged about spending $400 on what looked like just a Blue Partridge Brahma rooster, so I question their knowledge of rare chicken varieties and their value anyway... but it got me to thinking that really writing out what I know of the variety and it's likely origins and just why I believe that those are their most likely origins seems like something worthwhile to add to the thread.
I don't recall which happened first or exact dates, but to my knowledge there were two separate mutation 'events' that led to two distinct original lines of silkied Cochins somewhere along the line of a decade or more ago. One occurred in a hatchery line of frizzled Red Cochin bantams. I believe they were out of Ideal Poultry, but I don't remember that for sure. This produced to my memory a pair that served as the foundation of the silkied Reds. The other mutation occurred in a breeder's line of Black Cochin bantams. I do not know how many birds were produced to make the foundation of that line. However, that's why in general the silkied Reds don't have as nice of type as the silkied Blacks and other varieties easily incorporated into a Black line like Blue, Splash, and White, as you can see from my own birds:
Now, it is entirely possible that somewhere deep in their past there was an outcross to a Silkie that imparted the gene for silkied feathering, sure. Silkied feathering being recessive, it can hide in a line for a long time before reemerging when just the right pairing produces offspring. But, while it's certainly not unheard of to outcross Silkies to Cochin bantams to improve the type in a Silkie line, why would anyone do the same cross to improve a Cochin line only to have to deal with a plethora of dominant genes that have to be bred back out? Proper Silkies bred toward the standard in this country should have a crest, extra toes, non-yellow tinted flesh, a walnut comb resulting from the combination of two dominant comb genes, usually have a beard, have a white wash on their earlobes giving them that bluish color to the ear lobe, and they should be fibromelanistic, a minimum of 8 dominant genes (I believe the ear lobe color is polygenetic but I don't know that for sure) that Cochins themselves do not have. Breeding each and every one of those traits back out to produce a Cochin again would be a monumental task that would take generations of breeding and culling, work that I would expect you'd want to be vocal about taking credit for if it did happen. From a breeder it seems unlikely enough to have happened. Out of a hatchery, I would not expect such an outcross to have occurred at all.
On top of that, other breeds have spontaneously produced a silkied variant without any known outcrossing to Silkies as well, such as the silkied Ameraucanas. Even ducks and pigeons have similar mutations. From the reading I've done on such variants, it seems like a mutation that causes hookless feathering is a relatively common one, at least as mutations go. But, with all that said, yes, there could have been an outcross generations ago that led to the variety rather than them being a mutation. While I do strongly believe they are the result of a mutation, them resulting from an outcrossing is a possibility I will not deny.
Regardless of how they came to be, mutation or outcross, as they are currently, they are pure Cochins, not mixes. Likely many or all of you already know this, but because of how chickens are bred, generally in a group of multiple females and sometimes with multiple males, hatched from eggs whose exact mother is frequently not known due to the presence of other hens laying near-identical eggs within the same flock, they are not pedigreed like other animals that are bred in such a way that parentage can be easily tracked. As such, a bird that matches the description for a breed can technically be considered to be of that breed regardless of its parentage. Outcrosses to introduce new genetics or improve type are fairly common in chicken breeding. Even if you think that silkied Cochins resulted from an outcross in their past, if we were to be strict about that making them a mix, could any chicken breed be considered pure? Silkied Cochins check off all the marks for the breed: the shape, comb, and skin color, no beard, crest or extra toes, etc. The only way in which they differ from normal Cochin bantams is in their feathering type, just like with frizzled Cochin bantams. There is some work yet needing to be done to dial in the type and little details like eye color, but they are, for all purposes, really and truly Cochin bantams, simply of an uncommon variety.
I guess the long and short of it is I want to promise you all that I am not just making up the variety for the fun of it. It's not some mix I decided to come up with a fancy moniker for to try to fool people into thinking they're something they definitely are not. It's a variety I adore out of a breed I love and I really want to see them succeed. If I for a second thought that they were just a mix, especially a mix within a few generations of occurring, I would never call them pure Cochins. That behavior goes against my personal ethics on chicken breeding (and is a major pet peeve of mine to boot!). Take from that what you will. What I do know is that at least a decade has passed since silkied Cochins started being mentioned online from what I have found, and at no point in that time did they ever exhibit any traits that would indicate they were crossed to Silkies beyond simply having silkied feathering.
I don't recall which happened first or exact dates, but to my knowledge there were two separate mutation 'events' that led to two distinct original lines of silkied Cochins somewhere along the line of a decade or more ago. One occurred in a hatchery line of frizzled Red Cochin bantams. I believe they were out of Ideal Poultry, but I don't remember that for sure. This produced to my memory a pair that served as the foundation of the silkied Reds. The other mutation occurred in a breeder's line of Black Cochin bantams. I do not know how many birds were produced to make the foundation of that line. However, that's why in general the silkied Reds don't have as nice of type as the silkied Blacks and other varieties easily incorporated into a Black line like Blue, Splash, and White, as you can see from my own birds:
Now, it is entirely possible that somewhere deep in their past there was an outcross to a Silkie that imparted the gene for silkied feathering, sure. Silkied feathering being recessive, it can hide in a line for a long time before reemerging when just the right pairing produces offspring. But, while it's certainly not unheard of to outcross Silkies to Cochin bantams to improve the type in a Silkie line, why would anyone do the same cross to improve a Cochin line only to have to deal with a plethora of dominant genes that have to be bred back out? Proper Silkies bred toward the standard in this country should have a crest, extra toes, non-yellow tinted flesh, a walnut comb resulting from the combination of two dominant comb genes, usually have a beard, have a white wash on their earlobes giving them that bluish color to the ear lobe, and they should be fibromelanistic, a minimum of 8 dominant genes (I believe the ear lobe color is polygenetic but I don't know that for sure) that Cochins themselves do not have. Breeding each and every one of those traits back out to produce a Cochin again would be a monumental task that would take generations of breeding and culling, work that I would expect you'd want to be vocal about taking credit for if it did happen. From a breeder it seems unlikely enough to have happened. Out of a hatchery, I would not expect such an outcross to have occurred at all.
On top of that, other breeds have spontaneously produced a silkied variant without any known outcrossing to Silkies as well, such as the silkied Ameraucanas. Even ducks and pigeons have similar mutations. From the reading I've done on such variants, it seems like a mutation that causes hookless feathering is a relatively common one, at least as mutations go. But, with all that said, yes, there could have been an outcross generations ago that led to the variety rather than them being a mutation. While I do strongly believe they are the result of a mutation, them resulting from an outcrossing is a possibility I will not deny.
Regardless of how they came to be, mutation or outcross, as they are currently, they are pure Cochins, not mixes. Likely many or all of you already know this, but because of how chickens are bred, generally in a group of multiple females and sometimes with multiple males, hatched from eggs whose exact mother is frequently not known due to the presence of other hens laying near-identical eggs within the same flock, they are not pedigreed like other animals that are bred in such a way that parentage can be easily tracked. As such, a bird that matches the description for a breed can technically be considered to be of that breed regardless of its parentage. Outcrosses to introduce new genetics or improve type are fairly common in chicken breeding. Even if you think that silkied Cochins resulted from an outcross in their past, if we were to be strict about that making them a mix, could any chicken breed be considered pure? Silkied Cochins check off all the marks for the breed: the shape, comb, and skin color, no beard, crest or extra toes, etc. The only way in which they differ from normal Cochin bantams is in their feathering type, just like with frizzled Cochin bantams. There is some work yet needing to be done to dial in the type and little details like eye color, but they are, for all purposes, really and truly Cochin bantams, simply of an uncommon variety.
I guess the long and short of it is I want to promise you all that I am not just making up the variety for the fun of it. It's not some mix I decided to come up with a fancy moniker for to try to fool people into thinking they're something they definitely are not. It's a variety I adore out of a breed I love and I really want to see them succeed. If I for a second thought that they were just a mix, especially a mix within a few generations of occurring, I would never call them pure Cochins. That behavior goes against my personal ethics on chicken breeding (and is a major pet peeve of mine to boot!). Take from that what you will. What I do know is that at least a decade has passed since silkied Cochins started being mentioned online from what I have found, and at no point in that time did they ever exhibit any traits that would indicate they were crossed to Silkies beyond simply having silkied feathering.
Slight edit for clarity
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #503
The birthday baby does appear to be Bl^d, unfortunately, so not a bird I want to keep for breeding. 
If she does happen to be a pullet, though, I may go ahead and hold onto her in the mixed flock anyway. Washburne was sitting tight still this morning so I went ahead and moved her over next to the feeder and waterer so that she can drink in this awful heat and baby can start getting food and water as well. When I put my hand under her to lift her up and move her, she clamped her wings down on me and tried to keep my hand tucked up close to her belly. 
Good mama!
If she does happen to be a pullet, though, I may go ahead and hold onto her in the mixed flock anyway. Washburne was sitting tight still this morning so I went ahead and moved her over next to the feeder and waterer so that she can drink in this awful heat and baby can start getting food and water as well. When I put my hand under her to lift her up and move her, she clamped her wings down on me and tried to keep my hand tucked up close to her belly. Good mama!
When I put my hand under her to lift her up and move her, she clamped her wings down on me and tried to keep my hand tucked up close to her belly.
My broodies would draw blood if I tried that.
I have to get a pinch of feathers on the back of the head to keep from getting bitten.
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- #505
Yeah, I do have some like that, too! Fortunately I have bunches of broodies so I get to pick and choose who rears chicks and who goes to broody jail. 3 guesses which go where!
Anyway, I finally grabbed pictures of the brooder babies today!
In this shot, the two Blues are the very center. The lighting didn't lend itself to telling them from the four Blacks!
Little booties!
These two Black babies have a lot of yellow on their faces!
I did notice that one of my Blue babies has a bit of a concerning-looking navel. I thought for a moment that it was a pasty butt, but on closer inspection I don't think it is. Spoilered because it's kind of yucky to look at.
The little one is spunky and active, so I didn't mess with it too much. Hopefully it dries up and falls off with no issue!
Anyway, I finally grabbed pictures of the brooder babies today!
In this shot, the two Blues are the very center. The lighting didn't lend itself to telling them from the four Blacks!Little booties!
These two Black babies have a lot of yellow on their faces!
I did notice that one of my Blue babies has a bit of a concerning-looking navel. I thought for a moment that it was a pasty butt, but on closer inspection I don't think it is. Spoilered because it's kind of yucky to look at.
The little one is spunky and active, so I didn't mess with it too much. Hopefully it dries up and falls off with no issue!
Yeah, I do have some like that, too! Fortunately I have bunches of broodies so I get to pick and choose who rears chicks and who goes to broody jail. 3 guesses which go where!
I'm inclined to think that a broody who defends her nest/chicks against me will defend them against anything else too.
That is peculiar. I hope it turns out OK.
- Thread starter
- #507
I almost forgot to lock down the last batch of eggs yesterday! Went upstairs to check on the peeps a little while after I posted the pictures of them and realized, shoot, I hadn't cleaned and started the hatching incubator up yet!! 
So I had to rush to get that going, and moved the eggs over late last night right before going to bed. This morning, there's some draw down starting in a couple of the eggs, so I guess I got them moved just in time!
Hmm, maybe... But I have seen my previously mild-mannered within the flock girls, Marka and Peanut Butter, peck, chase, flog, and tear feathers out of the other birds when they've dared try to go after the babies, so I feel like those girls do a fine job protecting them! I haven't had issues with predators that are only able to get at the little ones, such as rats or snakes, so I admittedly don't know how they'd do against something like that, though. I have them set up to be well protected from anything else, so I'd much rather their chicks see that I am a trusted entity than one that must be defended against.
Indeed. Thankfully, the little one doesn't seem bothered by it in the least.
So I had to rush to get that going, and moved the eggs over late last night right before going to bed. This morning, there's some draw down starting in a couple of the eggs, so I guess I got them moved just in time!Hmm, maybe... But I have seen my previously mild-mannered within the flock girls, Marka and Peanut Butter, peck, chase, flog, and tear feathers out of the other birds when they've dared try to go after the babies, so I feel like those girls do a fine job protecting them! I haven't had issues with predators that are only able to get at the little ones, such as rats or snakes, so I admittedly don't know how they'd do against something like that, though. I have them set up to be well protected from anything else, so I'd much rather their chicks see that I am a trusted entity than one that must be defended against.
Indeed. Thankfully, the little one doesn't seem bothered by it in the least.
- Thread starter
- #508
Wash and her baby today! Be still my heart
And just a pair of pictures I thought was funny. Like mother like child, right?
And just a pair of pictures I thought was funny. Like mother like child, right?
- Thread starter
- #509
We had a power outage last night, starting around 2:30 am and lasting about 2 hours. Thankfully, I woke up almost immediately after the power went out and was able to wrap the incubator in a thick blanket right away. It only got down to about 92°F, and two eggs externally pipped during that time. As of this morning, a few more have as well, so I guess the hatch is underway despite everything! The brooder babies snuggled together under their heat plate and didn't make a peep about it not producing any heat, so I guess they were fine, too.
- Thread starter
- #510
First two out! Looks like a Blue and a Splash 
Looks like a Blue and a Splash Similar threads
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