Breeding to the SOP - Serious discussion about Ameraucanas, including project colors such as splash,

[waddles99]

Thank you for creating this thread. As you may remember I was extremely unhappy with the Ameraucana thread over in general breed discussion. Too many EE's. I try to embrace everyone of different levels of knowledge, but it just bugs me when I am trying to have an honest discussion about SOP Ameraucana and people are over here posting backyard mixes and crosses and calling them the same name as birds that breeders worked hard for years to create.

Let me tell everyone a bit about myself....I have been keeping Ameraucana for a little over a year. I am trying to ease myself into them slowly before trying to breed them. I hope to acquire a cockerel next spring to breed back to my pullets. A lot to learn in Ameraucanas. They aren't similar to the breeds I am used to. Pea comb, muff, and a tad smaller than most breeds I have. Anyway, I have the black Ameraucana only. They're my favorite variety...besides lavender, which isn't practical for me to have since I show, and I would like to have an APA recognized variety.

I wish I could get some good pics of them right now. They're molting and look terrible, so I can't really get pics. I have done pretty well with them so far. I've only taken them to a couple shows. My #26 band got best Ameraucana out of a class of 9, and my #28 got reserve, and in another show they got flipped around and #28 took best and #26 took reserve. Then again today #26 got best. None of my others placed. All depends on the judge.

 

[Ravynscroft]

Thank you for creating this thread. As you may remember I was extremely unhappy with the Ameraucana thread over in general breed discussion. Too many EE's. I try to embrace everyone of different levels of knowledge, but it just bugs me when I am trying to have an honest discussion about SOP Ameraucana and people are over here posting backyard mixes and crosses and calling them the same name as birds that breeders worked hard for years to create. 

Let me tell everyone a bit about myself....I have been keeping Ameraucana for a little over a year. I am trying to ease myself into them slowly before trying to breed them. I hope to acquire a cockerel next spring to breed back to my pullets. A lot to learn in Ameraucanas. They aren't similar to the breeds I am used to. Pea comb, muff, and a tad smaller than most breeds I have. Anyway, I have the black Ameraucana only. They're my favorite variety...besides lavender, which isn't practical for me to have since I show, and I would like to have an APA recognized variety. 

I wish I could get some good pics of them right now. They're molting and look terrible, so I can't really get pics. I have done pretty well with them so far. I've only taken them to a couple shows. My #26 band got best Ameraucana out of a class of 9, and my #28 got reserve, and in another show they got flipped around and #28 took best and #26 took reserve. Then again today #26 got best. None of my others placed. All depends on the judge. 

Self Blue/Lavender will be an accepted variety soon and really needs people to be showing them to help support it... just a thought for you to think about...

 

[waddles99]

Self Blue/Lavender will be an accepted variety soon and really needs people to be showing them to help support it... just a thought for you to think about...

Very good point....no one around here shows them. They hardly have any recognition at all.

 

[Ravynscroft]

Very good point....no one around here shows them. They hardly have any recognition at all.

And that is what they need...

 

[Wappoke]

My bad. I kinda assumed folks would know that a solid blue chicken would come from black.

Source for your information on the information of the E locus? I understand Extended black is preferable for black, but why would it have an impact on blue? And, again, source for removing rust with the silver allele?

Source for MI being incomplete dominant? Kippenjungle shows it as complete dominant, I believe. http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html

i do not plan on referencing every post. I will this time.

Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl

(J Hered-1971-MOORE-215-9)

Cote. R.S., 1976. A genetic analysis of self-black plumage in the domestic fowl. Master’s Thesis, University of Massachusetts.

Association of feather colour with constitutively active melanocortin 1 receptors in chicken
(Ling et al., Eur J Biochem. 2003 Apr;270(7):1441-9.)


Genetic variation of chicken MC1R gene in different plumage colour populations
X.L. Guo, X.L. Li, Y. Li, Z.L. Gu, C.S. Zheng, Z.H. Wei, J.S. Wang, R.Y. Zhou, L.H. Li, and H.Q. Zheng
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]British Poultry Science Vol. 51 , Iss. 6,2010[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]
Genetics of the Birchen and Blue plumage patterns in Leonesa chickens [1993] Campo, J.L.Alvarez, C.

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1996 Aug 14;1308(2):164-8.

A possible involvement of melanocortin 1-receptor in regulating feather color pigmentation in the chicken.

Takeuchi S1, Suzuki H, Yabuuchi M, Takahashi S.


GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL
J. Robert Smyth, Jr. Department of Veterinary and Animal Sciences University of Massachusetts Amherst, Massachusetts



I do not believe I need to reference the fact that most chickens are silver or gold at the silver locus.But I will

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL
J. Robert Smyth, Jr. Department of Veterinary and Animal Sciences University of Massachusetts Amherst, Massachusetts[/COLOR]


A self black bird that is silver should not leak rust color through the black because they are programmed to produce black and no other plumage color. Self blacks that are silver will leak white; while self-blacks that are gold will leak red or rust.

If a bird is columbian (sex linked silver), it can leak red only if it carries autosomal red or if the silver allele is leaky. My own research indicates that there is an autosomal red.

The blue phenotype is a dilution of a black phenotype. The more eumelanizers a self-blue chicken carries the darker blue the chicken will be- this will decrease the probability of the expression of non-blue color in the chicken.






[/COLOR]

 

[samouw]

i do not plan on referencing every post. I will this time.

Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl

(J Hered-1971-MOORE-215-9)

Cote. R.S., 1976. A genetic analysis of self-black plumage in the domestic fowl. Master’s Thesis, University of Massachusetts.

Association of feather colour with constitutively active melanocortin 1 receptors in chicken
(Ling et al., Eur J Biochem. 2003 Apr;270(7):1441-9.)


Genetic variation of chicken MC1R gene in different plumage colour populations
X.L. Guo, X.L. Li, Y. Li, Z.L. Gu, C.S. Zheng, Z.H. Wei, J.S. Wang, R.Y. Zhou, L.H. Li, and H.Q. Zheng
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]British Poultry Science Vol. 51 , Iss. 6,2010[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]
Genetics of the Birchen and Blue plumage patterns in Leonesa chickens [1993] Campo, J.L.Alvarez, C.

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1996 Aug 14;1308(2):164-8.

A possible involvement of melanocortin 1-receptor in regulating feather color pigmentation in the chicken.

Takeuchi S1, Suzuki H, Yabuuchi M, Takahashi S.


GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL
J. Robert Smyth, Jr. Department of Veterinary and Animal Sciences University of Massachusetts Amherst, Massachusetts



I do not believe I need to reference the fact that most chickens are silver or gold at the silver locus.But I will

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL
J. Robert Smyth, Jr. Department of Veterinary and Animal Sciences University of Massachusetts Amherst, Massachusetts[/COLOR]


A self black bird that is silver should not leak rust color through the black because they are programmed to produce black and no other plumage color. Self blacks that are silver will leak white; while self-blacks that are gold will leak red or rust.

If a bird is columbian (sex linked silver), it can leak red only if it carries autosomal red or if the silver allele is leaky. My own research indicates that there is an autosomal red.

The blue phenotype is a dilution of a black phenotype. The more eumelanizers a self-blue chicken carries the darker blue the chicken will be- this will decrease the probability of the expression of non-blue color in the chicken.

[/COLOR]

Thank you for the references.

 

[waddles99]

I might try and get a lavender cockerel next spring to breed to my black pullets. I already have my eye on this one pullet in specific. I'm going to wait till she molts and then finishes feathering out before I fully evaluate her. I didn't really pay much attention to her before she molted. She is my #26 band.

 

[Saris]

Oh, I'm excited for this thread.

 

[pamperedamber]

Hello everyone, I am very new to the Ameraucana breed. I received my first 2 just this last March and they were very poor quality . One was a splash with red leakage and bone issues so he was culled. The other is a Blue with red leakage I kept her (not being used in my breeding program) and she is currently sitting on 11 BBS eggs that were hand delivered but already started from a broader north of me. She also gave me 4 Lavendars that were laid yesterday and 2 BBS that were laid today. Those are in the incubator with 12 Lavendars that are on day 7 though only 4 look promising so far.
I am so excited to start my breeding program with these chicks.
I look forward to your suggestions and advice on my birds and breeding to the SOP.

 

[Saris]

in order for the blue gene to be expressed in a self-blue chicken or a blue single laced chicken the fowl must be genetically black.

Blue chickens are most likely produced with an E locus of homozygous extended black or heterozygous extended black /birchen or homozygous birchen. As a general rule, most black birds are extended black or an extended black heterozygote. The key to removing any rust in the blue is to produce birds that carry the silver allele at the sex-linked silver locus. There are other things that can cause rust in a birds plumage- one is autosomal red and the other is a leaky silver allele ( leaky silver allele is my opinion based upon research articles). A leaky silver allele allows for red pigments to be placed into the feather.

There are other modifiers that can add additional black pigments to a chickens plumage. If a breeder , over time, breeds out the modifiers- the birds will become a lighter blue and even begin to show rust if they are gold at the sex-linked silver locus or carry autosomal red.

Melanotic is an incompletely dominant gene. More later

Great question! I'm going to share what my thoughts are on this subject, but keep in mind that this is my first year with blues. So my voice is not one of experience, just a lot of reading and questioning those more experienced than I.

Ameraucanas are not truly "laced", at least the ones I've seen don't seem to follow the SOP for what a blue should look like. So, let's take a look at what the SOP actually says about the blue coloring..."an even shade of clear bluish slate, distinctly laced with glossy black.". I have seen lots of beautiful colored blues, or at least I thought so, but I don't remember a single one of them where the lacing is glossy black.

Most folks will say that the blue coloring should mimic the blue lacing as seen on a blue Andalusian - which also references the same blue coloring statement in the SOP as the Ameraucana. But if you put a blue Andalusian next to even the best blue Ameraucana, you can see the difference.

So...why is this and how do we get to that point?

Blue Ameraucanas carry the heterozygous form of the blue dilute gene (Bl). In it's homozygous dominant form (Bl Bl), we have splash and in it's homozygous recessive form (bl bl), we have no dilution of whatever black is on the chicken - this is what black Ameraucanas will have, as well as wheatens. Blue wheatens have the heterzygous form, diluting the black breast, tail, wings, etc to blue.

The Bl gene also can cause rustiness - often seen in the head and hackles area, and breast, but can be anywhere on the body. It also causes edging of feathers - pushing a darker version of the blue out to the feather edge. This edging is what we see in blues and blue wheatens. As long as you have the heterozygous form of Bl (Bl bl), you will have a blue chicken with some edging, though the edging may be faint on some birds. The gene can also cause uneven coloration, with wide ranges of expression (light blue to very dark blue), and sometimes speckled with black.

This next statement is my opinion and will be challenged. When you are dealing with dilution genes, over a period of time, you will lose coloration. At least that has been experience with 30 years of dealing with dilute genes in dogs (blue dobes, etc). In order to get the dark color back, you need to a) find another blue with the dark color you are seeking or b) bring a black in to minimize the dilution.

There are some that will argue that blue Ameraucana used to have the dark lacing like the Andalusian. That may be, I haven't been around long enough to see that first hand. If so, we've lost the genetics to create that lacing. So, the next question - where does that lacing come from and how do we get it back?

There are three genes that cause that black glossy true lacing, as seen in the blue Andalusian:

CO: Known as the Columbian gene, this is an incomplete dominant gene, so will be expressed, to some extent, even if heterozygous (so only one parent needs it to be expressed in the offspring that get that one copy). The Columbian gene (CO) restricts black pigment and re-arranges it, or shifts it - usually towards the outer edge of the feather. It will inhibit red expression (so covers that rustiness that often shows up with Bl?), particularly on silver ground color - which is why most people say better blues are on a silver ground color and better blacks are on a gold ground color and why blues and blacks shouldn't be crossed....up for debate.

MI: Melanotic, a dominant gene, so will always be expressed, even if heterozygous. Enhances black coloration (which is why it is necessary in black Ameraucana - too little MI in a black chicken will cause the loss of that much desired green sheen resulting in a flat black). It also pushes the black pigment to the edge of the feather, so on a blue chicken, it will enhance that blue edging to black and push it out towards the feather edge.

PG: Pattern gene, also dominant. This is a fun gene. This is where all those spangled, double laced, etc come from. The PG gene arranges the black pigment in concentric circles. When combined with MI, the concentric circles become broader and shift more towards the edge. Then, when you add in CO, the inner circles or laces are removed, resulting in a wide, black, single lacing on the feather's edge. MI will control how glossy black that edging is.

The only way to get those three genes back into the Ameraucana is to bring in a breed that has them - such as the blue Andalusian. Of course, this would be a project color, until bred back to the Ameraucana to get the true type back and reproduce true to that type. It is being done now by a couple of breeders and I'm excited to start seeing those results in shows soon.

Is autosomal red plus the homozygous Bl gene what causes splash wheaten to end up with red in their breast when their sires have no breast leakage? Or is that just one possible cause?