Breeds needing preservation - how rare

[TimG]

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Are people suggesting that a link to a publicly available picture, direct from the picture's source, used for non-commercial purposes is a copyright infringement? It's not like he downloaded the picture, placed it on his own site and failed to give credit. Everybody who saw it, saw it directly from the source. And, the link was right there for everyone to see.

Did anyone else notice that Goose and Duck Farm called this a "Bard rock"? If I were them, I would claim some hacker entered their site and placed the picture there, how else could a "Bard rock" make it onto a chicken site?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying, just because a pic or logo is up for viewing does not give you the right to use it for any means without the owners permission. commercial or non commercial make no differnece - ask the people that got busted for downloading movies and music - it was on the net and availible.

One big difference is that the people who got busted downloaded the music, rodriguezpoultry merely linked the picture (and this forum displayed the image).

Another difference is that the music downloading was a systemic attempt to avoid paying fees. rodriguezpoultry's use of gooseandduckfarm.com's single image surely falls within the doctrine of fair use.

 

[DiVon80]

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WOW! Nice boy!

 

[DiVon80]

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But how are they preserving a breed without actually breeding towards a standard of some sort? Isn't the point of preserving something (anything in this instance) for the protection of the breed characteristics? Rather than the characteristics chosen for that breed being lost?

How do you know they are not? What if they are buying from a breeder.

How do you know they are not breeding to a standard? Some hatcheries buy there chicks from breeders. All hatcheries do not breed there own babies.

 

[cybercat]

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The ALBC is not a breeder - it's up to the breeder to breed to standard. The ALBC is a group of breeders and not just for poultry. Take NYREDS for example, breeding a "threatend" breed. Nobody knows he is even out there or what he has. ok, he breeds for show quailty, wonderful, a fox gets into his pen and wipes out his flock. I ask you, how is that preserving the breed when it is gone and nobody even knows it was there in the first place? Groups like the ALBC or the SPPA do work to preserve the breed by keeping records, and lists of breeders - don't you think that has value?

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me? If a breeder has his own flock, he will doubtlessly have connections to other breeders that maintain the same flock so that if there is an issue, he will be able to get more birds. Oftentimes, these breeders "swap" their birds to maintain a different genetic line.

It seems to me, and this is just me saying, that groups like the ALBC are just a listing of rare breeds to show to the public. In other words, put the breeder's names out there so that others can see if the breeder will sell some of their eggs, chicks, culls, or breeder birds.

Actually the ALBC and the SPPA are in a sense registries of breeders just like the APA is but the first two focus on funtion over beauty wheres the last on is beauty over funtion. For those more familar with the dog shows lets use them as an example. In some breeds you have two very distint breeding practices. One for show and one for work. They dogs look different and have very different temperments. Now this is not the way it is supposed to be but it is they way it has turned out. WHY because everyone interpets the SOP different and has their own goals on what they consider important.

There is a third and forth group here also. The third group is trying to combine the show and work lines and the fourth is the pet/ backyard breeder. Sometime the pet/backyard breeder can be working toward the SOP but just not interesed in showing or working a animal. This does not make them any less of a good breeder but they might be Unknown because there animal are not out in public gaining titles.

OK now as you can see in chickens or any livestock you can see how these catagories would fit. If one is breeding and working towards the SOP one is working towards a goal. Joining a registry and filling out forms helps others and yourself in the long and short run. These are the best places for newbies to start for they can find stock with breeders who have the same goal as they do. If one is out side of the system and does not belong to an org. then one would not have the same resources.

It would be much harder to find others like onesself breeding thier chozen breed if it was outside of a org. In chickens yes we have clubs which one joins but those are usually part of the APA so you are part of a bigger breeder group. If one is not part of any group at all then one would have a much harder time finding others to get stock form or help.

The good thing one can be part of just one group or be part of more than one group. It seems to me the Steve and Rodriguez are in seprate groups and working on seprate goals. Steve for heritage and Rodriguez for show. One must make comprimisses when doing heritage or show breeding for the end product is different.

Now Steve has mentioned that Rodriguez and others like him should join the ALBC or the SPPA to help keep track of them. That is the biggest problem when we have so many other Organisations is that one can not join all of them. I think it would be better is the ALBC and the SPPA work with the APA to keep track of breeder numbers more correctly. It would be much more accurat if they collected data from other breeding groups instead of just those that are members of them. Then again that entales alot more paper work and time.

In the case of hatchiers they are only interesed in number of eggs they can hatch to sell chicks. Your big production hatcheries like MM are a business not in a sense a breeder. They would be the quilvant to a puppy mill in a way. Trying to make money selling as many as they can not worrying about SOP and defects. Therefor they would not be counted as preserving a breed as they are not working on that type of goal since they do mixes to improve production of egg laying. OK I am stopping this now. Hope it helps you understand better.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

That was a very good post cybercat, but if you don't mind, please allow me to make a few corrections.

1. I am female.

Since you see Steve and I as working at different angles in this, I must have one distinct difference. I do not quite understand the difference between heritage and show? Should they not conform to the standard of perfection regardless of how we are breeding them? That is what the standard was originally planned for. It was done in an attempt to preserve the breeds as they were originally planned to be. It was not originally intended for show, however has become more involved with the showing arena.

As for the ALBC, my issue is that they are not counting the QUALITY of the birds that are being counted. For example, a bird that is obviously hatchery stock, may be counted as a number along with a bird that was obviously bred towards the standard? The bird from the hatchery is doing a dis-service to the birds that were bred for production because false numbers regarding the standardized birds are misleading.

 

[Shared Acres]

Checkout Pocketful Of Poultry, it defines the meanings in the back of the book.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

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Now, I dont mean to start a war here, but in looking at these 2 barred rocks, the type on the hatchery roo is actually nicer to my eye than the show quality roo, other than the barring being nicer. Neck is better, back is better, tail carriage is better. If I were to pick one to add to a barred flock, Id choose the hatchery roo, as being closer to the standard.

THANK YOU!!!I thought I was seeing things or the pictures were crossed but, I would take the hatchery bird. You don't know that these birds arent comming from a breeder. Breeders need a place for there culls... Some breeders breed 100's and rather then klll them...

The bird in gooseandduck's photo, I'm almost certain, is not being used in a breeding directed towards the standard. (Spelling errors on the website) Jade's I'm not sure, but I believe she had listed that he was an F1 generation from hatchery stock.

I define a breeder as someone who is breeding towards a certain goal. For my purposes, I choose breeders who breed towards a standard. For others, they select breeders who breed towards production.

That's true, some breeders do breed hundreds of these birds, and without a breeding program in place, it really does nothing to help the birds. It's only making more and more of the same type of fowl that are possibly causing damage to the birds who really do need more supporters.

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

I do not quite understand the difference between heritage and show? Should they not conform to the standard of perfection regardless of how we are breeding them? That is what the standard was originally planned for. It was done in an attempt to preserve the breeds as they were originally planned to be. It was not originally intended for show, however has become more involved with the showing arena.

Case and point from yourself - you want to breed a Dark Cornish chicken to the point that it requires A/I for it to produce fertile eggs? with legs so wide the roo can't mount a hen, or scratch for food. That is the SOP? You can have it - our birds work for a living.

Steve in NC​

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Your birds are production. I hope your breeding program works for you and I hope that you are telling your buyers that you are breeding for production rather than type?

 

[cybercat]

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The differance between show and heritage like Steve said is in working. Many show birds have lost their production abilty in favor of looks. How many times have you read even on here that a breed in show lines is hard to find because breeders are having a hard time with laying and hatching. The prioty of breeding will be a bit different in regads to the SOP. A show breeder will look first to color/markings, feather, body, health then production. Whereas a heritage breeder will look to health, production, form, feather and color/ markings. Although you can work on many of these first together and your goals in line up might not be the same depending on your breeding stock. I think you get the gist of it here. Priorty in line up mean which is worked on most and which least. As you can see production in a show bird is put on the back burner in favor of color and feather to get show wins. Heritage farmer cares more of feeding himself than the looks of a chicken. So healthy producing stock stays while non producing goes or sickly gets culled. Now these chickens can be same breed but will look a little bit different as you can see now.