Buckeye Breed Thread

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:
Thanks for posting that Walt. Coming from you I'm sure it carries more weight than had I said the same.

I've often said I'm not the brightest bulb in the socket but Kenny has a way of writing so even I can get it. Moreover, even a dimwit like me knows that when you go outside your flock for some specific trait in the "new blood", you may very well bring that trait in BUT you also have NO idea what else you're bringing in. For me, the list of the "unknowns" far outweigh the benefits. And the way Kenny lays it out, it's pretty easy for me to see how one could breed a closed flock probably forever and never end up with any problems.

Plus, one of the things I'm shooting for in my breeding programs is conformity in my birds. I'd love to get to a point someday where instead of hatching a 100 chicks to keep a dozen, I could hatch 15-20 and keep a dozen with them all eventually growing up to look almost identical. Bringing in "new blood" could set that effort back who knows how many years. If, on the other hand, I find myself "losing something" or needing to focus more on a specific trait, I can still do so within my flock and hopefully still find myself moving toward that conformity.

Just such a case occurred when I unknowingly got a bad case of Barn Blinders and didn't realize it until I went to a show and saw my birds next to some others. So I had to rearrange my priorities in the subsequent breeding programs but at least I know I am fixing the problem without bringing anything else in.

God Bless,

 

[ocap]

Thanks for posting that Walt. Coming from you I'm sure it carries more weight than had I said the same.

I've often said I'm not the brightest bulb in the socket but Kenny has a way of writing so even I can get it. Moreover, even a dimwit like me knows that when you go outside your flock for some specific trait in the "new blood", you may very well bring that trait in BUT you also have NO idea what else you're bringing in. For me, the list of the "unknowns" far outweigh the benefits. And the way Kenny lays it out, it's pretty easy for me to see how one could breed a closed flock probably forever and never end up with any problems.

Plus, one of the things I'm shooting for in my breeding programs is conformity in my birds. I'd love to get to a point someday where instead of hatching a 100 chicks to keep a dozen, I could hatch 15-20 and keep a dozen with them all eventually growing up to look almost identical. Bringing in "new blood" could set that effort back who knows how many years. If, on the other hand, I find myself "losing something" or needing to focus more on a specific trait, I can still do so within my flock and hopefully still find myself moving toward that conformity.

Just such a case occurred when I unknowingly got a bad case of Barn Blinders and didn't realize it until I went to a show and saw my birds next to some others. So I had to rearrange my priorities in the subsequent breeding programs but at least I know I am fixing the problem without bringing anything else in.

God Bless,

I will get the poultry press back issues and try and understand but I am still confused when I try and apply a lifetime of "bad hips and skin problems in dogs" and "cross breed vigor in cattle F1". Then, I get this last order of chicks and five of the six pasty vent problems are one breed and that is the one that might have the most inbreeding ..... so much to learn...... last year I raised 100 partridge rocks and 60 guineas from a hatchery and only had one pasty vent, this year 26 chicks from a breeder and six had pasty vent problems....I realize pasty vent is probably not genetic but overall health? How many culls will I get if I inbreed, just thinking while I type. I am very much the newbie.

 

[Pathfinders]

In my experience pasted vents are most often caused by chilling during shipment. It's not (as far as I know) a genetic issue at all. I have found since shipping with a heater pad that the the vast majority of the chicks I have shipped have not had this problem. In fact this year the only batch that did (that I heard of) was from a box that was left overnight in a sorting center, and which had only 15 chicks in it. Normally I ship boxes of 25 with the heater pad. The box with 15 took two days to make a trip that was only supposed to take one, and those chicks did get somewhat chilled, even with the heater pad. One did die, but the rest are doing fine now I am told.

So I don't think you need to worry about long-lasting effects from it, once you get them past it.

 

[fowlman01]

Well I can tell you as a "newbie" and a Vet tech, it concerns me, that breeding that many years hasn't cause "ANY" problems? You line breed in dogs as well, but you still have to bring something in, that has some of your "line" in it, but not enough to cause "inbreeding", same with goats. To me there is a difference between "genetic diversity" or "total outcross" and bringing in something with some relation. And really, how do you become a "real breeder" without being a "newbie' as some point? Just sayn When I coin the term "newbie" I've raised chickens for many years, I have only recently started acquiring purebred stock, and breeding. I have raise other purebred animals for over 20 years.

I am also a breeder of dogs....have been for about 25 years. Dogs and chickens have little in common when it comes to breeding. There is a lot of info online on breeding closed flocks. The breeder you talked to that advised against using brother and sister was correct. Don't do it unless you have to. It typically accentuates the good parts and the bad parts of a chicken. The good parts is great, but getting rid of the bad parts may take many years. I don't have enough time to tell you online how to breed a closed flock. Read about it.

Raising chickens and breeding chickens are not even close to being the same. Raising and reproducing chickens has nothing to do with keeping pure bred chickens at the level of quality that you start with. To improve them is very difficult and it only takes two years of doing something wrong to completely ruin a line of purebred birds. Forget what you know about dogs and goats etc and learn about breeding chickens. I have been doing this for 50 years and I'm still learning....this is not easy.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

You are not alone, I too started out the same way, then picked a breed that was being raised by a friend of mine and fell in love with them! If you go to American Breed livestock Conservancy, they have lots of good information on managing a breeding flock and how to evaluate your flock, and they used the Buckeye as an example. Then go thru your flock and do the best you can to cull out was doesn't fit the bill. Then you will have a place to start, to decide if you need to bring something in if you need to. Also, the American Poultry Association has a book call the Standards of Perfection. A book of all the recognized breeds in America, it's a bit spendy, maybe you can find a used copy, even an older one, but it outlines the qualities and defects of the breeds, with this you can also compare your flock and cull if necessary. I don't know where you live, but maybe you can even find a mentor. This is what I was told, and I have done. I don't know if I picked the right birds or not, I did the best I could, and I will just have to continue to hatch and cull till I have what I think fits the description. One way to know of course is to take your birds to a poultry show, I was told you don't know what you have till it's out there being looked at. That's what I will do to.
So this is what I have learned thus far, from one "newbie" to another! Good luck!

The APA Standard of perfection is $59.00 delivered to your door. if you order it from the APA. that is quite a bargain if you are aware of what a 400 page full color book goes for these days. A used one will work for some breeds, but there was a revision in 2010 and the earlier books don't have all the breeds, but will work if they include the breeds you do have. If you get one be sure to read the first 40 pages. That is the most important part of the book.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Thanks for posting that Walt. Coming from you I'm sure it carries more weight than had I said the same.

I've often said I'm not the brightest bulb in the socket but Kenny has a way of writing so even I can get it. Moreover, even a dimwit like me knows that when you go outside your flock for some specific trait in the "new blood", you may very well bring that trait in BUT you also have NO idea what else you're bringing in. For me, the list of the "unknowns" far outweigh the benefits. And the way Kenny lays it out, it's pretty easy for me to see how one could breed a closed flock probably forever and never end up with any problems.

Plus, one of the things I'm shooting for in my breeding programs is conformity in my birds. I'd love to get to a point someday where instead of hatching a 100 chicks to keep a dozen, I could hatch 15-20 and keep a dozen with them all eventually growing up to look almost identical. Bringing in "new blood" could set that effort back who knows how many years. If, on the other hand, I find myself "losing something" or needing to focus more on a specific trait, I can still do so within my flock and hopefully still find myself moving toward that conformity.

Just such a case occurred when I unknowingly got a bad case of Barn Blinders and didn't realize it until I went to a show and saw my birds next to some others. So I had to rearrange my priorities in the subsequent breeding programs but at least I know I am fixing the problem without bringing anything else in.

God Bless,

Kenny is great!! He writes so that anyone can understand what he is saying. We all get a case of barn blindness and going to a show to see others birds is a good way to realize where you really are. I have about three breeds that I only have to raise a few birds to get the good ones I need to show. The rest I'm still working on. In some colors you would need to still raise a good number of birds, but only because of the color. ( blues as an example)

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I will get the poultry press back issues and try and understand but I am still confused when I try and apply a lifetime of "bad hips and skin problems in dogs" and "cross breed vigor in cattle F1". Then, I get this last order of chicks and five of the six pasty vent problems are one breed and that is the one that might have the most inbreeding ..... so much to learn...... last year I raised 100 partridge rocks and 60 guineas from a hatchery and only had one pasty vent, this year 26 chicks from a breeder and six had pasty vent problems....I realize pasty vent is probably not genetic but overall health? How many culls will I get if I inbreed, just thinking while I type. I am very much the newbie.

Generally pasty butt is a management problem. Also keep in mind that there are breeders and then there are real breeders. Everyone who makes chicks calls themselves "breeders"....they aren't......they are propagators.

Walt

 

[pettec63]

Quote:
Thank you for going into a bit more explanation, I appreciate that! I certainly understand the good trait bad trait thing as that is why most people line breed to begin with. I believe I have a nice flock of Buckeyes, they come from a very reputable breeder, but they are all brother and sister, therefore, I will be acquiring some birds, that are in the same line. After that, I have no intention of bringing anything else in. Until now, your right, I have been raising chickens for eggs and meat and was not interested in breeding them for preservation. It wasn't until I acquired my Buckeyes that I started to learn about breeding. I am right at the starting point, as all my current stock are a year old. I have culled out what I think are inferior birds, and have kept only 6 hens and 3 cocks. I will try and find closed flock breeding info and read up on it, it's all very new and interesting.

 

[pettec63]

Quote:
Yes it is a bargain for what type of book it is Walt, but for me, 59 dollars was a lot to pay for a book, no matter how good it was. But, I saved up the money and got it. I did get the newest addition, but in terms of using it for the Buckeyes, I didn't think anything had changed? That is why I mentioned an older copy, obviously if you raise other breeds it may not be accurate. As silly as this may sound, I actually made a copy of the Buckeye pages and took it out to my flock to compare. Not sure if I interpreted in right, as you know, even with the SOP, it's still left up to "interpretation". What one judge thinks, may not be what another thinks, I had that happen with my Muscovy's . In any case it's a good book none the less and one to save and purchase if she gets a chance.

 

[fowlman01]

Thank you for going into a bit more explanation, I appreciate that! I certainly understand the good trait bad trait thing as that is why most people line breed to begin with. I believe I have a nice flock of Buckeyes, they come from a very reputable breeder, but they are all brother and sister, therefore, I will be acquiring some birds, that are in the same line. After that, I have no intention of bringing anything else in. Until now, your right, I have been raising chickens for eggs and meat and was not interested in breeding them for preservation. It wasn't until I acquired my Buckeyes that I started to learn about breeding. I am right at the starting point, as all my current stock are a year old. I have culled out what I think are inferior birds, and have kept only 6 hens and 3 cocks. I will try and find closed flock breeding info and read up on it, it's all very new and interesting.

Many times we receive birds that are brother and sister and that's what we have to work with. Learn some breeding methods, apply them and with the new stock...even if it is the same line, you should have a good start. Proper linebreeding will give you birds that start to look as if they are cloned. There are several good methods of breeding and line breeding is only one of them...it is the one I prefer, but that does not make it the best for you. do some reading and then some of this will make more sense.

In the mean time read this:




Walt