Building and working with Columbian Patterned Birds
- Thread starter Rancher3535
- Start date
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interesting enough this male also has Pg(pattern gene) and Ml(Melanotic) but Db is so powerful that it will push all of that black our to the birds body to the Tail
oops sorry, this breed lack the Melanotic gene, but it does have the Pg(pattern gene) so their genotype would be eb/eb Pg/Pg Db/Db S/S... the Males look Black Tailed White but the Females look Autosomal Barred, which is a beautiful patter.. the breed name is the Friesian gulls http://www.groningermeeuwenclub.nl/site voorbld/Krieldef.JPG
interesting enough this male also has Pg(pattern gene) and Ml(Melanotic) but Db is so powerful that it will push all of that black our to the birds body to the Tail
oops sorry, this breed lack the Melanotic gene, but it does have the Pg(pattern gene) so their genotype would be eb/eb Pg/Pg Db/Db S/S... the Males look Black Tailed White but the Females look Autosomal Barred, which is a beautiful patter.. the breed name is the Friesian gulls http://www.groningermeeuwenclub.nl/site voorbld/Krieldef.JPG
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So appreciate the discussion!
Haven't weighed birds yet...we are in single digit wind chills this week.
Haven't weighed birds yet...we are in single digit wind chills this week.
- Thread starter
- #54
Me too ... the dictionary and I have become really good friends since you sent me those three articles. I have read them all 3 times now and still go Huuhh??? I get caught up in the technical words. LOL I did put all three of them in one document. If you want me to send it to you let me know. Also I am working on a terms sheet that goes with the three articles. I better get my reading all done now before hatching and spring comes around spend way to much time reading and being on the computer.
I finally went through all of my Columbian pullets today...all 40 of them. Had some nice ones but a little disappointed in the weights. they look like they should be heavier than what they came in at. I have 4 stud mating pens, 2 trio pens and 4 pens of 4-1. Think I am going to hatch out way to many of them again. LOL and that is only the columbians. Have 3 pens of Barred Rocks, 2 of Welsummers, 1 of Barnevelders, 1 of Cream Legbars but will rotate 3 males through the pen, 1 of Welbars...my new project...just what I needed.
Thanks for the info nicalandia you are always such great help with the genetics info.
Rob
I finally went through all of my Columbian pullets today...all 40 of them. Had some nice ones but a little disappointed in the weights. they look like they should be heavier than what they came in at. I have 4 stud mating pens, 2 trio pens and 4 pens of 4-1. Think I am going to hatch out way to many of them again. LOL and that is only the columbians. Have 3 pens of Barred Rocks, 2 of Welsummers, 1 of Barnevelders, 1 of Cream Legbars but will rotate 3 males through the pen, 1 of Welbars...my new project...just what I needed.
Thanks for the info nicalandia you are always such great help with the genetics info.
Rob
- Feb 21, 2013
- 102
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I ran across an interesting historical publication on Columbian Wyandottes and thought I would share the link in case some of you would like to see it.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.com/item/88986#page/7/mode/1up
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.com/item/88986#page/7/mode/1up
Send the articles to me and I will give you a synopsis of the work.
If the black tailed white male carried melanotic he would be spangled. Some times the pattern gene is recessive in males but dominant in females that are a specific genotype. As can be seen in this case, the pattern gene is not expressed in the male.
Tim
- Thread starter
- #57
Thanks Tim ... always enjoy you joining in on the conversations. I could not find out how to attach the article and way to long to post in here. I will try to figure it out.
Rob
TIM, please post a summary or link to a summary here
We are looking at Brian Reeders articles on APH~I and the effect of it (or lackthereof) on the brassiness on the Columbian pattern!!
THANKS
I have them all in PDF format if you want to send an email address
Already reading this collection and making notes! Great information and articles by early breeders...great photos as well! Thank you!
I was thinking the articles were from a scientific journal. The articles should have citations, data and data analysis for me to take seriously. The author does not provide any of this in the articles. He presents information
as if it is fact but presents no data, no references, no representations or analysis to support the statements. There has been no research (that I know of) carried out on autosomal red. Autosomal red was coined by Hutt in his book "Genetics of the fowl" page 191&192. The literature indicates the gene that can be used to dilute autosomal red and red expressed by the gold allele is the cream gene. This is a documented recessive gene and not incompletely dominant as Reeder suggests. I did not see any data or analysis that would support his claim of an incompletely dominant gene that would inhibit the production of pheomelanin pigment.
I shall not labor the points that are in error in Reeders articles. The following is quote " My work suggests that these two factors operate as autosomal dominants,and seem to be “codominant'.".
This would mean that the Aph and the AphI gene would have to be alleles and he states earlier that they are not alleles but separate incompletely dominant genes. Which is it???????????
There may be other genes out there that could dilute autosomal red to a white color but the research does not indicate this. There are studies that indicate there are other diluters but very little information about them.
Work by Taylor (1932) and Punnett (1948) indicate the cream gene is a viable candidate for the gene that removes red color from silver birds. Some information you want to consider that is presented in the research.
Punnett produced wheaten (Carefoot, 1995) columbian cream colored females (the females were buff/sex linked gold) while males of the same genotype were almost completely silver in color. This may indicate that the cream gene works with the columbian gene to remove red color from males. The males should have been a cream color and were not cream like the females.
Taylor produced birds that carried cream and the gold allele that were almost silver in color: they were a brassy silver color. The cream gene Taylor documented was found in silver birds. Hutt indicated that in birds that were descendants of Rhode Island red- the red due to gold was diluted more than red caused by the autosomal red gene. Hutt did not know about the mahogany gene found in Rhode Island Red ( Smyth, 1976) - it could be that the mahogany gene and the autosomal red were expressed strongly enough that the cream gene could not dilute the pigments to a cream color. Punnett referred to a chestnut color in his brown leghorn crosses- it could be that the autosomal red in the birds was causing he chestnut color. This is evident in today's cream leg-bars.
In Hutt's book he describes an experiment where silver males were crossed with gold females; all of the offsprng were gold. This would indicate that the males used in the cross were actually gold that was diluted to a silver color. In this case there may have been a recessive gene that was diluting the males to a silver color.
I have carried out some anecdotal experimentation with autosomal red. I produced silver females that had some red color in their plumage. The bird below is an example. The original cross was a barred rock male over rhode island red female. This was a third generation female- I produced other females; some had more and others had less of the red color in the plumage. All the females had some red in the plumage. I do not know if the autosomal red was recessive or dominant. My best guess is that it was dominant.
My males from the same anecdotal work did not have any red in their plumage. See the male below.
A hen produced from crossing the above male and above females. I only hatched a few like her.
Smyth, J. R. (1976). The inheritance of melanic pigmentation in the fowl. Proc. 25th Natl. Poult. Breed. Roundtable, Kansas City, MO. Univ. Missouri, Kansas City, 1-28.
LW Taylor - Proc. Intern Genetic Conyr., 6th Congr Ithuea, New …, 1932
Punnett, R. C. (1948). Genetic studies in poultry; cream plumage.
Carefoot, W. C. (1995). Evidence that the eumelanin restrictor genes (Co) and (Db) are present in the genome of the Buff Rock bantam. British Poultry Science, 36(2), 205-207.
BRUMBAUGH, JA AND HOLLANDER, WF (1966). Genetics of buff and related color patterns in the fowl. Poultry Science, 45:
Recent research indicates that there are different silver alleles in the chicken population. It is my belief, that the problem of brassy color in the pyle region of the birds may be due to a leaky silver allele which is affected by a promoter or another regulator found on the z chromosome; It could also be due to other genetics like autosomal red. According to the authors of "Mutations in SLC45A2 Cause Plumage Color Variation in Chicken and Japanese Quail" leghorns contain a different Silver allele than the other birds that were tested. It is possible that the brassy color in the columbian rock is due to a leaky silver allele.
The columbian restricted male that I posted carries a silver allele from a barred rock. Note he does not contain any brassiness in his hackles.
There will be no easy fix if the silver allele is the problem. If everybody is having problems with brassy hackles etc in the columbian rock breed then you will have to out cross or turn to hatchery stock that does not have brassy problems and then breed up to show quality birds. Some people may not like the idea but that is what will have to be done. If you out cross to a columbian breed I would suggest a columbian wyandotte. I know the conformation is not right and the comb is different but if you are tired of dealing with brassy hackles you have to do something.
One could cross barred rock or white rock with their columbians and see what happens. Whites could carry silver but they also may carry barring and dominant white or gold.
crossing a male white rock x female brassy silver = F1 females that carry the silver allele from the white rock many possibilities on the adult colors but you will have to see what happens
if your lucky- you cross the F1 brothers and F1 sisters and pick out the F2 males that do not show brassy hackle
back cross the F2 non brassy males to their F1 mother- all of he offspring males should be brassy hackle free and the females will carry non-brassy hackle silver
Crossing with a barred rock would be a lot more trouble.
Tim
as if it is fact but presents no data, no references, no representations or analysis to support the statements. There has been no research (that I know of) carried out on autosomal red. Autosomal red was coined by Hutt in his book "Genetics of the fowl" page 191&192. The literature indicates the gene that can be used to dilute autosomal red and red expressed by the gold allele is the cream gene. This is a documented recessive gene and not incompletely dominant as Reeder suggests. I did not see any data or analysis that would support his claim of an incompletely dominant gene that would inhibit the production of pheomelanin pigment.I shall not labor the points that are in error in Reeders articles. The following is quote " My work suggests that these two factors operate as autosomal dominants,and seem to be “codominant'.".
This would mean that the Aph and the AphI gene would have to be alleles and he states earlier that they are not alleles but separate incompletely dominant genes. Which is it???????????
There may be other genes out there that could dilute autosomal red to a white color but the research does not indicate this. There are studies that indicate there are other diluters but very little information about them.
Work by Taylor (1932) and Punnett (1948) indicate the cream gene is a viable candidate for the gene that removes red color from silver birds. Some information
you want to consider that is presented in the research.Punnett produced wheaten (Carefoot, 1995) columbian cream colored females (the females were buff/sex linked gold) while males of the same genotype were almost completely silver in color. This may indicate that the cream gene works with the columbian gene to remove red color from males. The males should have been a cream color and were not cream like the females.
Taylor produced birds that carried cream and the gold allele that were almost silver in color: they were a brassy silver color. The cream gene Taylor documented was found in silver birds. Hutt indicated that in birds that were descendants of Rhode Island red- the red due to gold was diluted more than red caused by the autosomal red gene. Hutt did not know about the mahogany gene found in Rhode Island Red ( Smyth, 1976) - it could be that the mahogany gene and the autosomal red were expressed strongly enough that the cream gene could not dilute the pigments to a cream color. Punnett referred to a chestnut color in his brown leghorn crosses- it could be that the autosomal red in the birds was causing he chestnut color. This is evident in today's cream leg-bars.
In Hutt's book he describes an experiment where silver males were crossed with gold females; all of the offsprng were gold. This would indicate that the males used in the cross were actually gold that was diluted to a silver color. In this case there may have been a recessive gene that was diluting the males to a silver color.
I have carried out some anecdotal experimentation with autosomal red. I produced silver females that had some red color in their plumage. The bird below is an example. The original cross was a barred rock male over rhode island red female. This was a third generation female- I produced other females; some had more and others had less of the red color in the plumage. All the females had some red in the plumage. I do not know if the autosomal red was recessive or dominant. My best guess is that it was dominant.
My males from the same anecdotal work did not have any red in their plumage. See the male below.
A hen produced from crossing the above male and above females. I only hatched a few like her.
Smyth, J. R. (1976). The inheritance of melanic pigmentation in the fowl. Proc. 25th Natl. Poult. Breed. Roundtable, Kansas City, MO. Univ. Missouri, Kansas City, 1-28.
LW Taylor - Proc. Intern Genetic Conyr., 6th Congr Ithuea, New …, 1932
Punnett, R. C. (1948). Genetic studies in poultry; cream plumage.
Carefoot, W. C. (1995). Evidence that the eumelanin restrictor genes (Co) and (Db) are present in the genome of the Buff Rock bantam. British Poultry Science, 36(2), 205-207.
BRUMBAUGH, JA AND HOLLANDER, WF (1966). Genetics of buff and related color patterns in the fowl. Poultry Science, 45:
Recent research indicates that there are different silver alleles in the chicken population. It is my belief, that the problem of brassy color in the pyle region of the birds may be due to a leaky silver allele which is affected by a promoter or another regulator found on the z chromosome; It could also be due to other genetics like autosomal red. According to the authors of "Mutations in SLC45A2 Cause Plumage Color Variation in Chicken and Japanese Quail" leghorns contain a different Silver allele than the other birds that were tested. It is possible that the brassy color in the columbian rock is due to a leaky silver allele.
The columbian restricted male that I posted carries a silver allele from a barred rock. Note he does not contain any brassiness in his hackles.
There will be no easy fix if the silver allele is the problem. If everybody is having problems with brassy hackles etc in the columbian rock breed then you will have to out cross or turn to hatchery stock that does not have brassy problems and then breed up to show quality birds. Some people may not like the idea but that is what will have to be done. If you out cross to a columbian breed I would suggest a columbian wyandotte. I know the conformation is not right and the comb is different but if you are tired of dealing with brassy hackles you have to do something.
One could cross barred rock or white rock with their columbians and see what happens. Whites could carry silver but they also may carry barring and dominant white or gold.
crossing a male white rock x female brassy silver = F1 females that carry the silver allele from the white rock many possibilities on the adult colors but you will have to see what happens
if your lucky- you cross the F1 brothers and F1 sisters and pick out the F2 males that do not show brassy hackle
back cross the F2 non brassy males to their F1 mother- all of he offspring males should be brassy hackle free and the females will carry non-brassy hackle silver
Crossing with a barred rock would be a lot more trouble.
Tim
Last edited:
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