BYC Orthodox Unite!

[SunriseChickers]

A bit of an oddly specific question, I'm not sure if it varies from church to church.

I don't have an icon corner, so I say all of my prayers simply facing East.
What I do have is a large, wooden, three bar cross that my Fiancé carved and built for me(I believe it's of Cedar, Acacia, and it may be Olive but I'm not sure on that one). Ideally, said cross would be part of an icon corner. I was wondering if it is better to face the cross without icons, or to face East anyways?
I also admittedly don't remember why we're supposed to face East, but I expect I'll have a refresher soon enough.

 

[chickengr]

A bit of an oddly specific question, I'm not sure if it varies from church to church.

I don't have an icon corner, so I say all of my prayers simply facing East.
What I do have is a large, wooden, three bar cross that my Fiancé carved and built for me(I believe it's of Cedar, Acacia, and it may be Olive but I'm not sure on that one). Ideally, said cross would be part of an icon corner. I was wondering if it is better to face the cross without icons, or to face East anyways?
I also admittedly don't remember why we're supposed to face East, but I expect I'll have a refresher soon enough.

sun rises from east. you can pray wherever you want to except in the toilet. if you have icons, good. but we pray to God, not the icons, so it is not crucial. the most important thing is that you pray with all your heart, not where, when and how.

 

[SunriseChickers]

sun rises from east. you can pray wherever you want to except in the toilet. if you have icons, good. but we pray to God, not the icons, so it is not crucial. the most important thing is that you pray with all your heart, not where, when and how.

Alright, thank you. I know some priests may be specific about that.
While at my house, my Fiancé prays to the East, but otherwise at his non East-facing icon wall at home.
Having been raised Protestant Baptist (last one I attended hides a stained glass window of Jesus because the newer generation of congregates were afraid it was idolatry to have any holy image. A pity, as the glass is lovely), I've certainly been careful about learning the differences between veneration and worship, as well as praying vs asking for intercession.

 

[Alaskan]

@SunriseChickers

It is best if the icon corner faces east... but not all houses/apartments are set up to make that happen.

If the icon corner can't face east, then north or south will do.

And when doing morning/noon/evening prayers at the icon corner ... face the icons, not direct east.

And yes, we should learn to pray constantly. But there are different kinds of prayer.

So, throughout the day you pray, often "Lord, have mercy" or "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner". Or whatever variations of the above that work for you. Also, any prayers that you have memorized and "speak" to you. Freeform prayer is also good.

Then there are set times to pray at the icon corner, usually morning and evening. But there are also a set of noon prayers.

I always tell my kids, if you wake up in the middle of the night, God is clearly telling you to pray.

And then there is prayer at church, as a community, with the priest.

All are incredibly important. They all work differently to help to soften our heart to God.

Now back to the icon corner:

An icon corner grows over time. Usually, you get an icon of your Saint (the saint name you get at baptism), at your baptism. And then you might be gifted or get an icon at a special event.

At your wedding, it is usually the parents of the bride that buy a matching set of Christ and Theotokos for the bridal couple. Since my son is marrying a convert, I have bought the matching set.

In some jurisdictions you also get a new rug at your wedding. Traditionally from the parents of the groom. I do have a wedding rug... but with the dogs we have had...etc. etc. I used to have it rolled up in a corner, and I would unroll and lay it out when we prayed... but then a mouse ate some fringe off!!! So my wedding rug is now stored in my bedroom.

And then of course you can have a votive lamp (usually one that uses olive oil), candles, and incense.

So... this is my icon corner.

My wedding icons are the matching Christ and Theotokos that are framed. Far right and left. Then I was gifted, at some point, the antique Christ and Theotokos that are in the middle.

I used to have a cross there, that one of the kids had made... but it isn't there any more. (As my kids age and move out of the house, they sometimes take their things)

Lower far left is Saint Olaf, patron Saint of my family. And moving right from him are icons of the saints of all my kids, myself and my spouse. It is also nice to keep an icon of the saint of whatever godchildren you have, to remember to pray for them. Also, I have a wedding of Cana (lower, towards the right, and faded) and an icon of Abraham's hospitality (tiny, dark, and antique at the top).
Behind some of the icons on the wall are palm crosses, from Palm Sunday. Usually, at the start of great Lent, you do a deep clean and burn the palm crosses from the previous year.

And.... I have more icons on the table.

I have 2 votive lamps, one hanging and one on the table... because I broke the glass on the hanging one and STILL haven't decided what to do about it... so I am now using the votive lamp that sits on the table. That one I try to keep burning 24/7.

I have a bunch of candles because when the kids were little they each would light a candle before we started to pray together. Kids love fire, at least mine did, so it was a great incentive. My "baby" is now 16, but the candles are still there.

I never use incense, but a couple of my kids love it, so they use it on occasion.

Often the icon of the wedding at Cana, or an icon of Joachim and Anna is the icon in or before the master bedroom.

Also, it is traditional to hang your wedding crowns above the bed. (Unless you are Russian or OCA, they use large crowns from the church and do not bring the crowns home).

It is good to pick an icon to hang in the dinning room or close to the kitchen. You can hang whatever you like, but often it is the Wedding at Cana, the Last Supper, or Saint Euphrosynos the cook. I do not have an icon there, no good place in my house. Also, the way my house is set up, you can see the icon corner from the kitchen and living/dining area.

I do have an icon in each hallway in my house, icons at each of the kid's beds, and a tiny icon above the front door. The tiny icon above the front door is REALLY nice, since it is there to remind you to pray before going into the world.

Can you see the super tiny Christ that I have above the door? Of course, it doesn't have to be THAT small! Wow, it does look silly in that photo... But, I like it. Also, that one has plastic something over the icon, so super easy clean.

Clearly...I like to answer questions !! Do you have any more?

Other wedding things... the church can provide a cup to use during the wedding, or you can provide a cup. If you provide the cup, then clearly you then get to bring it home and use it/display it. It will be blessed, so should be used wirh that understanding. Often it can also stay on the icon table, and be used to drink holy water. You can't see in that photo... but I have 2 jugs of holy water in the bookcase top the right of my icon table. I know some people that put the cup in a shadow box with their wedding crowns, or store the cup away in a cupboard and bring it out to use it at every anniversary.

I do NOT have my wedding cup because it vanished in a move. I had found a beautiful silver cup in an antique store. Of course, with the price of silver today!!! And, the cup does NOT need to be silver. It can be made out of whatever you choose! Glass or crystal would be beautiful, but breakable. I would recommend food safe pewter. Gorgeous, not breakable, and affordable. Just... don't lose it.

 

[SunriseChickers]

@SunriseChickers

It is best if the icon corner faces east... but not all houses/apartments are set up to make that happen.

If the icon corner can't face east, then north or south will do.

And when doing morning/noon/evening prayers at the icon corner ... face the icons, not direct east.

Ah, thank you! This is probably the direct sort of answer I was looking for. Very helpful.

And yes, we should learn to pray constantly. But there are different kinds of prayer.

So, throughout the day you pray, often "Lord, have mercy" or "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner". Or whatever variations of the above that work for you. Also, any prayers that you have memorized and "speak" to you. Freeform prayer is also good.

I am familiar with the short mercy prayer, and I say it in my heart whenever I think of it. I have found it an encouraging reminder of humility as I go through my day.

Then there are set times to pray at the icon corner, usually morning and evening. But there are also a set of noon prayers.

What do you do for the noon prayers? I've seen my Fiancé go out on our Eastern porch for them, I don't know what he does at his home.
I do morning and evening prayers from an Antiochien prayer book, immediately after waking and just before going to bed. I can't stand for much time in the mornings (or in general, but it's sometimes worse in the mornings), so I sit on my bed facing East. I share a room with a sister, and because of lighting arrangements I can't read very far from my bed, so I end up sitting for that, too. Unfortunately I'm not able to stand for liturgy anymore, which is sad. I enjoyed the standing.

I always tell my kids, if you wake up in the middle of the night, God is clearly telling you to pray.

And then there is prayer at church, as a community, with the priest.

All are incredibly important. They all work differently to help to soften our heart to God.

Now back to the icon corner:

An icon corner grows over time. Usually, you get an icon of your Saint (the saint name you get at baptism), at your baptism. And then you might be gifted or get an icon at a special event.

This leads to another question I have. Any advice for choosing a Patron Saint? I know they're usually done off name. Once married, I'm changing my middle name to my first name. I have found two martyr saints who would do with that name(few if none for my given first name). I have previously received a valid baptism, so I won't be baptized in the Orthodox Church, only Chrismated. Would I still get a baptismal name?

At your wedding, it is usually the parents of the bride that buy a matching set of Christ and Theotokos for the bridal couple. Since my son is marrying a convert, I have bought the matching set.

In some jurisdictions you also get a new rug at your wedding. Traditionally from the parents of the groom. I do have a wedding rug... but with the dogs we have had...etc. etc. I used to have it rolled up in a corner, and I would unroll and lay it out when we prayed... but then a mouse ate some fringe off!!! So my wedding rug is now stored in my bedroom.

How lovely! Neither of us knew about these traditions. I like both of them. He has Theotokos and Christ icons, but I'm sure he would greatly appreciate a well made matching set.
Oh! Perhaps I should mention that my Fiancé is also a convert, though you may have already picked up on that. He's been Orthodox for nearly 5 years, I think.

And then of course you can have a votive lamp (usually one that uses olive oil), candles, and incense.

So... this is my icon corner.
View attachment 3900922

My Fiancé caught sight of this image whilst sitting next to me and briefly claimed my phone to have a look. He was happy to admire your lovely collection of icons.

My wedding icons are the matching Christ and Theotokos that are framed. Far right and left. Then I was gifted, at some point, the antique Christ and Theotokos that are in the middle.

I used to have a cross there, that one of the kids had made... but it isn't there any more. (As my kids age and move out of the house, they sometimes take their things)

Lower far left is Saint Olaf, patron Saint of my family. And moving right from him are icons of the saints of all my kids, myself and my spouse. It is also nice to keep an icon of the saint of whatever godchildren you have, to remember to pray for them. Also, I have a wedding of Cana (lower, towards the right, and faded) and an icon of Abraham's hospitality (tiny, dark, and antique at the top).
Behind some of the icons on the wall are palm crosses, from Palm Sunday. Usually, at the start of great Lent, you do a deep clean and burn the palm crosses from the previous year.

And.... I have more icons on the table.

Ah, I love the background you've given with these. I'd never heard of the Wedding of Cana, but my man is familiar with it.

I have 2 votive lamps, one hanging and one on the table... because I broke the glass on the hanging one and STILL haven't decided what to do about it... so I am now using the votive lamp that sits on the table. That one I try to keep burning 24/7.

I have a bunch of candles because when the kids were little they each would light a candle before we started to pray together. Kids love fire, at least mine did, so it was a great incentive. My "baby" is now 16, but the candles are still there.

I'm taking notes here.

I never use incense, but a couple of my kids love it, so they use it on occasion.

Often the icon of the wedding at Cana, or an icon of Joachim and Anna is the icon in or before the master bedroom.

Also, it is traditional to hang your wedding crowns above the bed. (Unless you are Russian or OCA, they use large crowns from the church and do not bring the crowns home).

We will be married in a Greek Orthodox church. He seems to recall seeing crowns at his parish, but I very much hope we can have our own. We plan to ask his priest.

It is good to pick an icon to hang in the dinning room or close to the kitchen. You can hang whatever you like, but often it is the Wedding at Cana, the Last Supper, or Saint Euphrosynos the cook. I do not have an icon there, no good place in my house. Also, the way my house is set up, you can see the icon corner from the kitchen and living/dining area.

He and I have spoken about putting certain patron saints in different areas of the house. I think it's a great idea!

I do have an icon in each hallway in my house, icons at each of the kid's beds, and a tiny icon above the front door. The tiny icon above the front door is REALLY nice, since it is there to remind you to pray before going into the world.

View attachment 3900917
Can you see the super tiny Christ that I have above the door? Of course, it doesn't have to be THAT small! Wow, it does look silly in that photo... But, I like it. Also, that one has plastic something over the icon, so super easy clean.

That's a great reminder! It is hilariously small in that image. I like that idea very much.

Clearly...I like to answer questions !! Do you have any more?

I am very glad to read your answers! And I very much appreciate it.
Did you homeschool your children or do something else? My Fiancé has been looking into Orthodox curriculums, hoping to do our best to instill strongly rooted beliefs from a young age, and keep their youth saturated with church life. We plan to homeschool either way, but I didn't know that there were laid out curriculums, which is fantastic.

Other wedding things... the church can provide a cup to use during the wedding, or you can provide a cup. If you provide the cup, then clearly you then get to bring it home and use it/display it. It will be blessed, so should be used wirh that understanding. Often it can also stay on the icon table, and be used to drink holy water. You can't see in that photo... but I have 2 jugs of holy water in the bookcase top the right of my icon table. I know some people that put the cup in a shadow box with their wedding crowns, or store the cup away in a cupboard and bring it out to use it at every anniversary.

I do NOT have my wedding cup because it vanished in a move. I had found a beautiful silver cup in an antique store. Of course, with the price of silver today!!! And, the cup does NOT need to be silver. It can be made out of whatever you choose! Glass or crystal would be beautiful, but breakable. I would recommend food safe pewter. Gorgeous, not breakable, and affordable. Just... don't lose it.

I hadn't heard that you could get your own cup. That would be a nice keepsake, though I'd be less pressed about keeping that than the Stefana. I'd have to poke my man about it and do some nudging, haha.

 

[Alaskan]

What do you do for the noon prayers? I've seen my Fiancé go out on our Eastern porch for them, I don't know what he does at his home.
I do morning and evening prayers from an Antiochien prayer book,

I use the Antiochian prayer book (small, pocket sized, with a red or black cover), and it does have noon prayers in there. They are nice and short. That prayer book has just been reprinted, it has some nice additions. The older one had a simple cross on the cover, the new one has a fancy cross.
I have the old one here next to me:

Any advice for choosing a Patron Saint?

I would look at the saints on your birthday, (new calendar and old calendar) as well as 7 days after your birthday (when a baby is born in an Orthodox family, the priest comes to your house 7 days after the birth, says prayers over the infant and mom, and the baby is named. And yes, I know you didn't have that... but 7 days after birth... that it a nice day to look at.) Also, look at the day that your Chrismation will be (both old and new calendar).

But, it is nicest when your saint is the name you are regularly called. And... it is perfectly fine to pick a saint that matches your name, but that you do not feel super close to, then later on, maybe years from now, you find a saint that you strongly connect to and add that saint to your icon corner and pray to both of them to help you.

Think of it like this, it is nice to have LOTS of friends, and to have different kinds of friends!

I have previously received a valid baptism, so I won't be baptized in the Orthodox Church, only Chrismated. Would I still get a baptismal name?

You still get a baptismal name (from what I understand). And I know that it is often done that way (chrismation, skipping the baptism). But I must say, I firmly believe in the power of prayer. And the prayers at the baptism are fantastic. They also include exorcism. Three times, of course! I think it would be a terrible thing to not get all those exorcisms and all those many prayers.

But yes, it is often done that way (converts coming in by chrismation alone).

I'd never heard of the Wedding of Cana, but my man is familiar with it.

The wedding at Cana is the first miracle that Christ does, and he does it because his mother tells him he must. This is a big reason why we ask the Theotokos to help us beg Christ for mercy. Also, we take this as a sign that Christ is pro marriage. It is the gospel that is read at a wedding.

We will be married in a Greek Orthodox church. He seems to recall seeing crowns at his parish, but I very much hope we can have our own. We plan to ask his priest.

At a Greek parish I would think that most couples bring their own crowns. Greeks usually have a wreath of flowers. Or flowers and leaves. Antiochians either do flowers like the Greeks, or a simple metal circlet, at times with a tiny icon at the front (Christ for the groom, Theotokos for the bride).

I had a flower crown (I chose tiny flowers that would dry well), my son and bride picked woven metal circles with some beads on them. For both my wedding and my son's my mom made the lace ribbon that connects the crowns.

Greeks and Antiochians have a ribbon that connects the 2 crowns. Usually the sponsor holds the ribbon when you do the dance of Isaiah. (In the dance of Isaiah, the priest leads, usually with his right hand and stole over the right hands of bride and groom, sponsor behind holding the ribbon. And then slowly and carefully, you walk around a table. ) I should note that the dance of Isaiah can be done MANY different ways depending on who is there, the coordination of everyone involved, jurisdiction, etc.

Did you homeschool your children or do something else?

Yes, I homeschooled them all.

5 boys.
My eldest is almost 26, and on down to 16.

I think, by the mercy of God, I did a great job! And I am very pleased!

This coming school year I will only be teaching the youngest.

 

[SunriseChickers]

I use the Antiochian prayer book (small, pocket sized, with a red or black cover), and it does have noon prayers in there. They are nice and short. That prayer book has just been reprinted, it has some nice additions. The older one had a simple cross on the cover, the new one has a fancy cross.
I have the old one here next to me:
View attachment 3901900

I have one that is very similar, if not the same except for a papery front instead of a leather look. Though I don't think there is a section just for noon prayers. There are morning and evening prayers sections. Within those, there are also sections for prayers to be said at specific hours etc, but only one or two extremely brief ones for the noon hour.

I would look at the saints on your birthday, (new calendar and old calendar) as well as 7 days after your birthday (when a baby is born in an Orthodox family, the priest comes to your house 7 days after the birth, says prayers over the infant and mom, and the baby is named. And yes, I know you didn't have that... but 7 days after birth... that it a nice day to look at.) Also, look at the day that your Chrismation will be (both old and new calendar).

But, it is nicest when your saint is the name you are regularly called. And... it is perfectly fine to pick a saint that matches your name, but that you do not feel super close to, then later on, maybe years from now, you find a saint that you strongly connect to and add that saint to your icon corner and pray to both of them to help you.

Think of it like this, it is nice to have LOTS of friends, and to have different kinds of friends!

This is very helpful advice, thank you!

You still get a baptismal name (from what I understand). And I know that it is often done that way (chrismation, skipping the baptism). But I must say, I firmly believe in the power of prayer. And the prayers at the baptism are fantastic. They also include exorcism. Three times, of course! I think it would be a terrible thing to not get all those exorcisms and all those many prayers.

But yes, it is often done that way (converts coming in by chrismation alone).

I'd certainly appreciate the prayers and exorcisms. We will see how the priest works it out.

The wedding at Cana is the first miracle that Christ does, and he does it because his mother tells him he must. This is a big reason why we ask the Theotokos to help us beg Christ for mercy. Also, we take this as a sign that Christ is pro marriage. It is the gospel that is read at a wedding.

Ah, alright, yes I'm familiar with those scriptures. I didn't recall the place "Cana", however.

At a Greek parish I would think that most couples bring their own crowns. Greeks usually have a wreath of flowers. Or flowers and leaves. Antiochians either do flowers like the Greeks, or a simple metal circlet, at times with a tiny icon at the front (Christ for the groom, Theotokos for the bride).

I had a flower crown (I chose tiny flowers that would dry well), my son and bride picked woven metal circles with some beads on them. For both my wedding and my son's my mom made the lace ribbon that connects the crowns.

Greeks and Antiochians have a ribbon that connects the 2 crowns. Usually the sponsor holds the ribbon when you do the dance of Isaiah. (In the dance of Isaiah, the priest leads, usually with his right hand and stole over the right hands of bride and groom, sponsor behind holding the ribbon. And then slowly and carefully, you walk around a table. ) I should note that the dance of Isaiah can be done MANY different ways depending on who is there, the coordination of everyone involved, jurisdiction, etc.

I love flowy flowery things, though I've been looking at the metal crowns the most. I like the ones that are silver and delicate with lace wrapped around it. I was aware of the connecting ribbon and dance of Isaiah. I think he has yet to find our sponsor.

Yes, I homeschooled them all.

5 boys.
My eldest is almost 26, and on down to 16.

I think, by the mercy of God, I did a great job! And I am very pleased!

This coming school year I will only be teaching the youngest.

Did you use the resources that some archdiocese provide information on, or just do all from scratch?
Both myself and my Fiancé were homeschooled, along with each of our own two siblings.



Growing up Protestant, I was always told that veiling is something that no longer applies and that your hair counts as a covering, etc. Etc. Though I've not always been entirely convinced of it. I've been reading into it more lately and would like to take the tradition more seriously. I'm wondering if you'd have any thoughts or advice on doing such for a convert such as I.

 

[chickengr]

I have one that is very similar, if not the same except for a papery front instead of a leather look. Though I don't think there is a section just for noon prayers. There are morning and evening prayers sections. Within those, there are also sections for prayers to be said at specific hours etc, but only one or two extremely brief ones for the noon hour.

This is very helpful advice, thank you!

I'd certainly appreciate the prayers and exorcisms. We will see how the priest works it out.

Ah, alright, yes I'm familiar with those scriptures. I didn't recall the place "Cana", however.

I love flowy flowery things, though I've been looking at the metal crowns the most. I like the ones that are silver and delicate with lace wrapped around it. I was aware of the connecting ribbon and dance of Isaiah. I think he has yet to find our sponsor.

Did you use the resources that some archdiocese provide information on, or just do all from scratch?
Both myself and my Fiancé were homeschooled, along with each of our own two siblings.



Growing up Protestant, I was always told that veiling is something that no longer applies and that your hair counts as a covering, etc. Etc. Though I've not always been entirely convinced of it. I've been reading into it more lately and would like to take the tradition more seriously. I'm wondering if you'd have any thoughts or advice on doing such for a convert such as I.

there are different opinions about covering hair. I remember Jesus said something like if women don't mind cutting their hair they should cover head. I tried to find that verse but couldn't. if so women with short hair can pray uncovered. that's how I understand that. I would like to hear other people's opinion.

 

[Alaskan]

Did you use the resources that some archdiocese provide information on, or just do all from scratch?

I did my own thing. The stuff that the archdiocese has is a new thing, I haven't even seen it!!!

I used some menonite stuff that I LOVED!

Growing up Protestant, I was always told that veiling is something that no longer applies and that your hair counts as a covering, etc. Etc. Though I've not always been entirely convinced of it. I've been reading into it more lately and would like to take the tradition more seriously. I'm wondering if you'd have any thoughts or advice on doing such for a convert such as I.

Do you mean just covering your head in church? More traditional/conservative women cover their heads before entering church, and some also cover their heads before praying at the icon corner.

Each congregation is different, some have zero head covering, some all women cover, and some parishes are a mix.

Also... different cultures tend to pick different styles of head covering.

 

[SunriseChickers]

there are different opinions about covering hair. I remember Jesus said something like if women don't mind cutting their hair they should cover head. I tried to find that verse but couldn't. if so women with short hair can pray uncovered. that's how I understand that. I would like to hear other people's opinion.

My own understanding was that if you do not cover your head, the punishment was having your hair shorn.
1 Cor. 11:6 NKJV "For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered."
And NIV for plainer English. "For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head."
Having read it again in its entirety, it also seems to me that this particular verse is giving women some leeway, "if it is a disgrace".

There is a verse I often see, 1 Cor. 11:15
NKJV: "But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering."
NIV: "but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering."
Which seems to tell me that a woman with long hair does not need to cover her hair, but that doesn't make as much sense to me when I consider related verses.
I also read an article that pointed out the cultural context. In general, women were almost always expected to be wearing a head covering during those times, so that can have a big effect on how you understand those scriptures where head coverings are mentioned overall.

Aside from the scriptures, I feel like wearing something like that for everyone to see, that which is something so closely tied to purity, chastity, and religion in general, is a very strong reminder of who you are in Christ and it seems to be almost wholly helpful especially when worshipping or praying.
And I personally am all for tradition. So is my Fiancé, and when I asked if I should wear my one scarf/covering to Liturgy tomorrow, it was an immediate "Yes". And, a couple days before, he gave a reminder of "As long as you are wearing it consistently, not as a fashion statement."(which I am not one to do).