Also layer feed isn't exactly the best, & hens/chickens in general(Both genders do best on a higher protein feed.
Can I ?......
- Thread starter Yah
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EuroChook
Songster
- Jul 18, 2023
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Thank you. I'm not keen on all flock mixes because one cannot ever say that the needs of a chick, a grower, a layer and a broiler are all roughly the same. Just then add this or that. And how to take away from something already compounded into a product?
This guy, though he looks like Father Abraham, has some good basic ideas on the different types of feeds out there.
https://www.backyardchickencoops.co...the-different-types-of-chicken-feed-explained
Buttt at any rate, I compound my own feed--boom boom! *Cymbal clash!* Aint no panic then, when I look up what our darlings need.
I'm gonna wait till the feed expert chimes in.
Layer is not all flock.
So you are complaining about products you do not even use? No wonder it sounds like you do not actually know what is in them. Reading a few bag labels would be a good idea (or look it up on the manufacturers' websites.)
The basic idea is very simple:
--Provide free choice oyster shell so the layers can get enough. Make the main feed have a calcium level that suits the ones with the lowest needs (that is all the rest of them.)
--For the main feed, put in enough protein, and enough of every other nutrient, to meet the highest needs. The chickens who could get by with less will still be fine with the higher levels.
With that system, NO chicken suffers from too little of anything. NO chicken suffers from too much of anything. The nutrient level is in the safe range for every one of them, and the only thing provided separately is the calcium. Calcium is the only thing where the needs of one chicken are high enough to be dangerous to another chicken. For everything else, there is a level that is safe for them all.
If you are raising thousands or millions of broilers, or layers, or whatever else, yes you would make special feed for each stage. That lets you skimp and save a little bit of money by lowering certain nutrients at certain ages. This does not actually help the chickens in any way, just saves money without hurting the chickens too badly ("too badly" would be when they die, or do not grow enough meat, or do not lay as many eggs. All of those are profit-related as well.)
Cornish Cross broilers are a bit of a special case. They are bred to grow fast and get butchered young, and a higher protein feed (broiler feed) is needed to maximize that. This is not a matter of what is healthy for them, it is a matter of what people want (lots of meat fast.) Even Cornish Cross can live and grow on the feeds used for normal chickens, will still grow faster than any other kind of chicken on that feed, and will even be a bit healthier than if they ate broiler feed ("little bit healthier" meaning the usual health problems show up a few weeks later.)
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Not that I qualify as an expert, but I was paged, so...
In no particular order, and without linking individual quotes....
"Chick Food is almost always better than All Flock" That would make sense, but its not often true. As one popular counter example, Nutrena Nature Wise Chick Starter and Nutrena All Flock. The Chick starter is lower CP, Lower Calcium, slightly higher Lys, and rounding error improved in Met. Better??? That's a close thing. Purina Start & Grow v Flock Raiser? The Flock Raiser pretty much sweeps the floor with Start & Grow.
"Adult Hens must have Adult Feed" Uh, no. With the exception of calcium* and total MKE, the nutritional needs of an adult bird are LOWER than the nutitional needs of a younger bird. For broiler nutritional examples, see here p. 10. Layers? Here's the old NRCS recommends. MKE they can get by simply eating more. PLENTY more links and studies available.
*Calcium needs are determined by rate/frequency of lay and size of eggs. A bird in molt which has stopped laying has no greater calcium needs than a rooster or a hatchling or a pullet. A hen near end of life from a breed that only infrequently lays small eggs in their prime has calcium needs very similar to the rooster, hatchling, pullet. High Calcium "Layer" formulations are a progressive danger not only to pullets and hatchlings and Roos but also to the adult hens of breeds which are infrequernt layers of small eggs... Given the option, most birds are very good at self regulating calcium intake, Which is why I join many other posters on BYC in recommending a dish of oyster shell or similar very high calcium source (i.e dicalcium phosphate) be made available in conjunction with an All Flock/Flock Raiser type feed.
"not keen on all flock mixes because one cannot ever say that the needs of a chick, a grower, a layer and a broiler are all roughly the same" Good. They aren't. But if you have a mixed flock, an "all flock" formulation with a side of oyster shell is the best option. (If you can feed seperately, you don't really have a mixed flock). Read Nat J's post above, its very good, I won't repeat it. OTOH, "Layer" feed is about the worst complete feed you can offer any bird - it was designed for one pupose. To provide the lowest cost nutritionally adequate feed to support production layers in commercial production conditions, with commercial production lifespans. It was not intended for your silkies, your banties, your Brahma, your Yokohama, your Rudd Rangers, Colored Broilers, Amauricana (sp?), or your Starlight green Easter Egger, nor any of my barnyard mixes. It was formulated for ISA Browns, Leghorns, Comets and similar to maintain them till first adult molt, with acceptable losses of 4-7% annually. It was NOT formulated with any concern for long life. Specialized feeds are limited purpose for specialized flocks - and sometimes are little more than re-labeled "all flock" type formulations.
Finally, READ THE LABELS. Not the branding. I don't care whether it says Layer, Super Layer, Feather Fixer, Show Bird, All Flock, Flock Raiser, Starter, Grower, Game Bird, Super Biddie, Meat Bird, or any other descriptor for the uninformed. Let me read the mill date and the guaranteed nutrition label, and I'll decide for myself. If you don't know your bird's needs, I suggest reading some of my links above, re-reading @nat J 's post, and trolling these forums a little longer - it will make you a far more educated consumer, and a better keeper for your flock. and if your time is limited/you don't do numbers? Then follow my advice, Nat J's advice, and that of most other posters here on BYC active on the feed forums. Don't worry about it, we've thought it through for you, and have considerable research and experience to back that collective opinion.
In no particular order, and without linking individual quotes....
"Chick Food is almost always better than All Flock" That would make sense, but its not often true. As one popular counter example, Nutrena Nature Wise Chick Starter and Nutrena All Flock. The Chick starter is lower CP, Lower Calcium, slightly higher Lys, and rounding error improved in Met. Better??? That's a close thing. Purina Start & Grow v Flock Raiser? The Flock Raiser pretty much sweeps the floor with Start & Grow.
"Adult Hens must have Adult Feed" Uh, no. With the exception of calcium* and total MKE, the nutritional needs of an adult bird are LOWER than the nutitional needs of a younger bird. For broiler nutritional examples, see here p. 10. Layers? Here's the old NRCS recommends. MKE they can get by simply eating more. PLENTY more links and studies available.
*Calcium needs are determined by rate/frequency of lay and size of eggs. A bird in molt which has stopped laying has no greater calcium needs than a rooster or a hatchling or a pullet. A hen near end of life from a breed that only infrequently lays small eggs in their prime has calcium needs very similar to the rooster, hatchling, pullet. High Calcium "Layer" formulations are a progressive danger not only to pullets and hatchlings and Roos but also to the adult hens of breeds which are infrequernt layers of small eggs... Given the option, most birds are very good at self regulating calcium intake, Which is why I join many other posters on BYC in recommending a dish of oyster shell or similar very high calcium source (i.e dicalcium phosphate) be made available in conjunction with an All Flock/Flock Raiser type feed.
"not keen on all flock mixes because one cannot ever say that the needs of a chick, a grower, a layer and a broiler are all roughly the same" Good. They aren't. But if you have a mixed flock, an "all flock" formulation with a side of oyster shell is the best option. (If you can feed seperately, you don't really have a mixed flock). Read Nat J's post above, its very good, I won't repeat it. OTOH, "Layer" feed is about the worst complete feed you can offer any bird - it was designed for one pupose. To provide the lowest cost nutritionally adequate feed to support production layers in commercial production conditions, with commercial production lifespans. It was not intended for your silkies, your banties, your Brahma, your Yokohama, your Rudd Rangers, Colored Broilers, Amauricana (sp?), or your Starlight green Easter Egger, nor any of my barnyard mixes. It was formulated for ISA Browns, Leghorns, Comets and similar to maintain them till first adult molt, with acceptable losses of 4-7% annually. It was NOT formulated with any concern for long life. Specialized feeds are limited purpose for specialized flocks - and sometimes are little more than re-labeled "all flock" type formulations.
Finally, READ THE LABELS. Not the branding. I don't care whether it says Layer, Super Layer, Feather Fixer, Show Bird, All Flock, Flock Raiser, Starter, Grower, Game Bird, Super Biddie, Meat Bird, or any other descriptor for the uninformed. Let me read the mill date and the guaranteed nutrition label, and I'll decide for myself. If you don't know your bird's needs, I suggest reading some of my links above, re-reading @nat J 's post, and trolling these forums a little longer - it will make you a far more educated consumer, and a better keeper for your flock. and if your time is limited/you don't do numbers? Then follow my advice, Nat J's advice, and that of most other posters here on BYC active on the feed forums. Don't worry about it, we've thought it through for you, and have considerable research and experience to back that collective opinion.
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Yes. While most of us recommend an "all flock" formulation with oyster shell on the side, if you compare labels, for many brands their "starter" and "all flock" are near identical. During the Pandemic, MANY used Starter when the couldn't find all flock - or all flock when they couldn't find starter or grower.
The birds were fine - as expected - because the nutritional labels are so often similar.
Advantage to All Flock? Price (and in Purina's case, Nutrition - see links supra). Much more likely to find a 50# bag of All Flock than a 50# bag of Starter in most farm stores - and like anything, buying in bulk is generally less per pound.
Disadvantage to All Flock? Many stores will carry your favorite All Flock only in Pellet (reduces waste), which can be too big for your hatchlings to eat. (Wet mash fixes that, though its an extra step. Fermenting, too - ditto) But if you can get an All Flock crumble, there's really no reason not to - unless its one of the VERY few brands with an inferior All Flock compared to their Starter.
Oh, and if you want/need Medicated for coccidiosis control, MUCH more likely to find that available in Starter.
and finally, as a general rule (since I'm up here on a soap box) I am AGAINST home made feeds. For a long, long, long list of reasons. The top three being that:
1) most don't know enough to even pretend to do it right.
2) Even if they know enough, they can't assay their inputs, so they have to assume and trust to averages, which may, or may not, result in their feeds hitting desired nutritional targets consistently.
3) its almost always more expensive.
Even the person pushing the beans and pasta chicken diet (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't do this) is paying at least $0.76/lb for his obviously nutritionaly deficient feed recipe. There are better options on the shelf.
There are, of cousre, exceptions. I've even helped people with their "make at home" feed recipes - but if you don't have really unusual conditions (some of which, really, you should consider not having chickens in) or needs, you are virtually guaranteed to be better off with a reputable commercial option.
1) most don't know enough to even pretend to do it right.
2) Even if they know enough, they can't assay their inputs, so they have to assume and trust to averages, which may, or may not, result in their feeds hitting desired nutritional targets consistently.
3) its almost always more expensive.
Even the person pushing the beans and pasta chicken diet (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't do this) is paying at least $0.76/lb for his obviously nutritionaly deficient feed recipe. There are better options on the shelf.
There are, of cousre, exceptions. I've even helped people with their "make at home" feed recipes - but if you don't have really unusual conditions (some of which, really, you should consider not having chickens in) or needs, you are virtually guaranteed to be better off with a reputable commercial option.
I'm feeding 18% starter/grower to all my birds regardless of age with free choice oyster shell. None have melted yet. 
Some are starting their first molt and I may switch them to a gamebird starter grower that is 27% protein until they have their new feathers in with same said oyster shell as needed on the side. Near their feed but not mixed in it. All the hens are doing good considering they are in a big oven called summer.
Some are starting their first molt and I may switch them to a gamebird starter grower that is 27% protein until they have their new feathers in with same said oyster shell as needed on the side. Near their feed but not mixed in it. All the hens are doing good considering they are in a big oven called summer.Similar threads
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