Can You Tell the Mix in an EE?

[RowanTheRed]

If you knew which breeds of chickens a hatchery had and bought an EE from them would you be able to determine the parentage of the chick?

I'm asking because I have a 5 week old sweetie that I bought as an EE. I have NO idea what his/her parentage is.

But I do know what breeds the hatchery I bought it from has. They are Black Copper Marin, Barnevelder, Ameraucana, Brahma, Welsummer, Cochin, Orpington, RIR, Dominique and of course EE.

Given that list and some photos of the chick could you make a fairly good guess as to the mix? (I realize that if at least one parent was an EE, that this increases the mixes involved.)

So here is the chick in question:

this is the day I bought her, supposedly she hatched the night before.

9 days later (4/21)

Just short of 3 weeks (4/30)

(5/5)

4 1/2 weeks (5/16)

 

[Kiki]

No you can not tell.
But you could have fun guessing.

 

[RowanTheRed]

No you can not tell.
But you could have fun guessing.

Lol, that's what I figured. And guessing is what I've been doing. I think this one might have at least one parent that was an EE to start with!

Oh well, if anyone wants to guess mix and gender, have at it

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Pretty hard to tell parentage unless there is a distinct dominant feature to follow.
Knowing that....
Since the hatchery told you it is an EE, and we'll trust their word, Ameraucana or Araucana should be in the background, preferably one of the parents.

Since it has a pea comb, and a bit of muffing, Ameraucana (or EE mix) was one parent, we'll assume they are a better quality hatchery and actually used an Ameraucana, which would be a smart thing to do if they were intending to pass along blue/green EE color eggs.

You can probably eliminate Cochin as those heavy feathered legs usually pass some down to the offspring. Same with Marans IF French style with leg feathering, although mine seem to have a 50/50 whether or not leg feathers passed down. (We'll come back to BCM later).

You can eliminate Dominque as it does not have a walnut comb. Both pea (from Ameraucana) and rose (Dominque) are dominant, and express together to make walnut. It has a clean looking pea comb, so Dominque is not likely in the background.

Probably not Brahma as that likely would have created leg feathers as those too are fairly heavy in the leg feathering which usually passes down.

So that leaves the Welsummer and Barnevelder and Buff Orp or a Marans American style (without feathered legs or they dropped off in first generation).

Since it is dark legged, I'm thinking the Black Copper Marans as Welsummer and Barnevelder have yellow legs, and Orpington white, BUT leg coloring is very tricky. I've had yellow Barnevelder roo over Cal Grey yellow/black wash hen produce chicks with slate grey legs....so let's look at the feather pattern.

Now it is a red partridge with heavy black lacing/patterning. BCM usually gives all black chicks as the black is pretty dominant. My Barnevelder roo (black body with brown wings, back, considered double laced) will produce red with black lacing over a reddish or partridge hen. The chick also looks a bit like a Barnevelder chick.

So my best guess would be the Barnevelder was used over an Ameraucana or EE, hopefully Ameraucana, which comes in 8 standard colors, a number of which would allow black lacing with red expression. The Buff Orpington is a possiblity too, but I think the legs and overall appearance are too dark, and there is no hint of Orpington in the body...but that is a possibility. Welsummer is a distinct possibility, but it usually throws a chipmunk wild type unless there is a dark color on the other parent, totally possible.

And, I think you may have a rooster. That coloring is very blocky looking, typical of a rooster. Hens will have regular, even color patterning. The comb is still pale, but that may be 3 clear pea rows, which also indicate rooster. Wait and watch. Hopefully the pattern will even out and the comb stay pale....otherwise, you've got a boy.

My thoughts
LofMc (who is breeding Barnevelder rooster over Splash Marans, Cream Legbar, Black Isbar, Red Sex Link, Cal Grey, to produce a colorful egg basket and colorful plummage).

 

[RowanTheRed]

Pretty hard to tell parentage unless there is a distinct dominant feature to follow.
Knowing that....
Since the hatchery told you it is an EE, and we'll trust their word, Ameraucana or Araucana should be in the background, preferably one of the parents.

Since it has a pea comb, and a bit of muffing, Ameraucana (or EE mix) was one parent, we'll assume they are a better quality hatchery and actually used an Ameraucana, which would be a smart thing to do if they were intending to pass along blue/green EE color eggs.

You can probably eliminate Cochin as those heavy feathered legs usually pass some down to the offspring. Same with Marans IF French style with leg feathering, although mine seem to have a 50/50 whether or not leg feathers passed down. (We'll come back to BCM later).

You can eliminate Dominque as it does not have a walnut comb. Both pea (from Ameraucana) and rose (Dominque) are dominant, and express together to make walnut. It has a clean looking pea comb, so Dominque is not likely in the background.

Probably not Brahma as that likely would have created leg feathers as those too are fairly heavy in the leg feathering which usually passes down.

So that leaves the Welsummer and Barnevelder and Buff Orp or a Marans American style (without feathered legs or they dropped off in first generation).

Since it is dark legged, I'm thinking the Black Copper Marans as Welsummer and Barnevelder have yellow legs, and Orpington white, BUT leg coloring is very tricky. I've had yellow Barnevelder roo over Cal Grey yellow/black wash hen produce chicks with slate grey legs....so let's look at the feather pattern.

Now it is a red partridge with heavy black lacing/patterning. BCM usually gives all black chicks as the black is pretty dominant. My Barnevelder roo (black body with brown wings, back, considered double laced) will produce red with black lacing over a reddish or partridge hen. The chick also looks a bit like a Barnevelder chick.

So my best guess would be the Barnevelder was used over an Ameraucana or EE, hopefully Ameraucana, which comes in 8 standard colors, a number of which would allow black lacing with red expression. The Buff Orpington is a possiblity too, but I think the legs and overall appearance are too dark, and there is no hint of Orpington in the body...but that is a possibility. Welsummer is a distinct possibility, but it usually throws a chipmunk wild type unless there is a dark color on the other parent, totally possible.

And, I think you may have a rooster. That coloring is very blocky looking, typical of a rooster. Hens will have regular, even color patterning. The comb is still pale, but that may be 3 clear pea rows, which also indicate rooster. Wait and watch. Hopefully the pattern will even out and the comb stay pale....otherwise, you've got a boy.

My thoughts
LofMc (who is breeding Barnevelder rooster over Splash Marans, Cream Legbar, Black Isbar, Red Sex Link, Cal Grey, to produce a colorful egg basket and colorful plummage).

Wow! Thank you very much for that very thorough explanation. That is exactly what I was looking for, the dominant characteristics that each breed would pass along.

My thought, granted I'm very new at this, was barnevelder.

And I agree that my chick might very well be a roo. It's very dominant and tends to want to sit up high where it can watch everything going on around the other chicks.

One question though, are Barnevelder chicks really fast growers? This one feathered out and grew twice as fast as the other 3 that I got the same day. All supposedly hatched the night before. It just seemed to mature way faster that the others.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

And of course what I gave you was VERY big generalities as genetics are literally a crap shoot and often you have hidden stuff that shows up, and I've made some pretty big assumptions....but hopefully educated ones. (I also simplified the comb development on pea and rose but went with the greater likelihood).

No, my Barnevelders were not necessarily fast maturing. More likely it is the hybrid vigor, however EE's also are not known for maturing quickly either.

Genetics play a part, so does age. Sometimes at hatcheries you get chicks slightly older than the others in the same batch.

It can also depend a lot on your environmental conditions. When I heat lamp brood, I tend to keep the light on too much and too warm, and my chicks feather in slowly.

When my smart hens brood, I have babies running around (even in sub-freezing weather) at a week of age in their little down coats feathering in totally by a couple of weeks and maturing very fast. (Which is why I broody hatch 100% of the time now.)

Likely age and genetics.

LofMc

 

[drumstick diva]

Maybe a cockerel but, as long as it doesn't crow, there is still hope. It is a darling chick .

 

[RowanTheRed]

And of course what I gave you was VERY big generalities as genetics are literally a crap shoot and often you have hidden stuff that shows up, and I've made some pretty big assumptions....but hopefully educated ones. (I also simplified the comb development on pea and rose but went with the greater likelihood).

No, my Barnevelders were not necessarily fast maturing. More likely it is the hybrid vigor, however EE's also are not known for maturing quickly either.

Genetics play a part, so does age. Sometimes at hatcheries you get chicks slightly older than the others in the same batch.

It can also depend a lot on your environmental conditions. When I heat lamp brood, I tend to keep the light on too much and too warm, and my chicks feather in slowly.

When my smart hens brood, I have babies running around (even in sub-freezing weather) at a week of age in their little down coats feathering in totally by a couple of weeks and maturing very fast. (Which is why I broody hatch 100% of the time now.)

Likely age and genetics.

LofMc

Oh, I understand. And I won't hold you to any of it I promise. As a NICU nurse I am very aware of how fickle genetics (Mother Nature) can be! I was just interested in the dominant aspects that could possibly lead to a more educated guess. And I thank you for that.

As far as it being a bit older, I suppose it coule have been. It was the same size as the other three, and still had the egg tooth. And it APPEARED to have the same fuzzy little body with only a hint of wing feathers. But who knows?

I did keep them under a lamp, like I said, I am new to this and only have chicks right now so no mama hen to brood them for me.

Maybe a cockerel but, as long as it doesn't crow, there is still hope. It is a darling chick .

Well, it is official now. I can say for fact that the chick is definitely a little roo. I just watched him crow twice! Ugg. Well, now I have some choices to make.

First off as a roo, his name most certainly can't be Maisey! Time to come up with a more masculine name for him.

Second, do I keep him or not. I live in a neighborhood and although we don't have any rules about no chickens or no roosters, I am not certain if I want this one fathering a bunch of wee chicks with my others. I am not sure WHAT sort of mix would come out of the coupling of him with my lavender ameraucana, splash orpington, or silver lace cochin! Not to mention the golden comets and brown leghorns I also have.

But he is a really sweet little guy. He stands up to the bigger girls, that are about 4 times his size right now, when they try to pick at the smaller chicks. And he is always hopping right up into my lap for cuddles or on my shoulder to have the best vantage point to keep watch.

decisions, decisions, decisions....

 

[Lady of McCamley]

First rule of roosters, keep the ones that are nice ONLY!

Then look at your breeding plans.

If you are breeding for SOP, then of course you keep the best conformation of the type.

If you are breeding for egg color, you keep those which will get you to your goals. Ditto meat types.

If he is sweet, I can say that a red based roo, with black markings, makes for a nice combination over ladies. He's not dominant black, so you won't end up with all black chicks. He is not barred so you won't end up with all black and white barred chicks.

He also likely (but no guarantee) has at least 1 blue gene to pass to his daughters. Over your Lavender Ameraucanas, you'd get 100% blue layers. A great way to recapture the blue shell gene without breeding it out. I'm not familiar with the Lavender genetics, but you'd have a chance of not completely obstructing that, although I suspicion you'd get mostly black/grey from that mating...of blue egg layers 100%.

Over your Splash Orpington...splash over a red based roo (using simliar assumptions as my red based black marking Barnevelder) will give you 100% blue chicks with potential of some lacing coming through which could be black or red, typically incomplete. Body type would be heavier, but not as heavy as the Orpington, so maybe not truly dual purpose. 50% green layers; 50% tan.

Silver Laced Cochin, chances are foot feathering will come forward but not as heavy. Probably softer feathers. You MIGHT have ability with this pairing to get sex linking. Silver is dominant over red and passes with the Z chromosome. You might get silver based girls with some incomplete lacing and red based boys, depending upon how the secondary black genetically is coded in the rooster. Heavier body type, sweet birds. 50% green layers; 50% light tan.

A fun gene calculator is located here: https://www.breedbook.org/?action=geneticscalculator&tab=CHICKEN

As to crowing, I am in the same situation. Unincorporated county with no rules for chickens or roosters, however neighbors close enough that I don't want a noise complaint. I purchased a "No Crow" collar from My Pet Chicken for my Barnevelder boy and it works like a charm. You do have to tweek it for a day or two, slowly tightening as the rooster gets used to it and you get it set so that it muffles the crow without choking the roo, but it has been awesome.

Have fun with your flock

 

[RowanTheRed]

First rule of roosters, keep the ones that are nice ONLY!

Then look at your breeding plans.

If you are breeding for SOP, then of course you keep the best conformation of the type.

If you are breeding for egg color, you keep those which will get you to your goals. Ditto meat types.

If he is sweet, I can say that a red based roo, with black markings, makes for a nice combination over ladies. He's not dominant black, so you won't end up with all black chicks. He is not barred so you won't end up with all black and white barred chicks.

He also likely (but no guarantee) has at least 1 blue gene to pass to his daughters. Over your Lavender Ameraucanas, you'd get 100% blue layers. A great way to recapture the blue shell gene without breeding it out. I'm not familiar with the Lavender genetics, but you'd have a chance of not completely obstructing that, although I suspicion you'd get mostly black/grey from that mating...of blue egg layers 100%.

Over your Splash Orpington...splash over a red based roo (using simliar assumptions as my red based black marking Barnevelder) will give you 100% blue chicks with potential of some lacing coming through which could be black or red, typically incomplete. Body type would be heavier, but not as heavy as the Orpington, so maybe not truly dual purpose. 50% green layers; 50% tan.

Silver Laced Cochin, chances are foot feathering will come forward but not as heavy. Probably softer feathers. You MIGHT have ability with this pairing to get sex linking. Silver is dominant over red and passes with the Z chromosome. You might get silver based girls with some incomplete lacing and red based boys, depending upon how the secondary black genetically is coded in the rooster. Heavier body type, sweet birds. 50% green layers; 50% light tan.

A fun gene calculator is located here: https://www.breedbook.org/?action=geneticscalculator&tab=CHICKEN

As to crowing, I am in the same situation. Unincorporated county with no rules for chickens or roosters, however neighbors close enough that I don't want a noise complaint. I purchased a "No Crow" collar from My Pet Chicken for my Barnevelder boy and it works like a charm. You do have to tweek it for a day or two, slowly tightening as the rooster gets used to it and you get it set so that it muffles the crow without choking the roo, but it has been awesome.

Have fun with your flock

Oh, that is some very cool information. Makes it very interesting. I loved the idea of the genetics calculator from the link above, however it doesn't seem to be working and when I tried to create an account to see if that makes it work, it said that it was no closed for that. Well POO!

I do have a question for you, what would you call his type of patterning exactly? When I was looking through the list I wasn't certain what his would be called. I'm guessing that he is likely to change his look as he matures more and may end up looking completely different from what he does now.

Thanks for the great info by the way. I wasn't really interested in breeding chickens, my original intent was simply to have some fresh eggs. HOWEVER it is very interesting and is now in my mind and I am trying to figure out a way that I can breed a few here and there. Hmmmm.....