Canker help needed please! My beloved rooster needs help!

[CCinVT]

Good Morning.
So this morning I checked My hens, and didn't see any on any of them. they do not share a run, food or water with the boys, but a couple of times a boy has flown the coop, and we have to catch, and put him back. Yesterday after I noticed it on the boys i locked the girls in their run, and didn't let them free range. I will double check their mouths tonight, but the random few I could check this morning I didn't see any.

I got some pictures this morning of the boys. I also separated the boys on the cull list again. I think their mouths look the worst, and so I want to focus if it seems reasonable on treating the boys I want to keep.... I will post pictures of the cull boys too so you can see what I think it is developing into. Abe, Brian, and Black beard are the boys I would like to keep. They are the only ones with names, and they are about 3yrs old. Abe is the only one we saw with a spot on the inside of his mouth. The other two black beard and brian had a spot on the edge of their beaks that seems to be in the same area as the "cull boys" but is very slight. There was one cull boy with a tiny spot on the inside of his beak/near his tongue. Everyone else seem to be on the edge of their beaks....

 

[CCinVT]

This is Abe, and you can sorta see on the roof of his mouth on the right side the spot on the inside. We were having a hard time getting the phone to focus, but I think you can see it, and at least the location. These pictures below are the boys I want to keep, and are separated together.

Abe side of beak. maybe discolored, and a small spot. This is the location most all of the roosters have symptoms.

Brian's inside of his mouth has no visible spots. The spots on his comb are from being picked on.

small spot on Brian's beak. Not discolored or yellow like Abe's

Black beard's inside of mouth nothing visible

Black beards side of beak spot.

These boys are the ones i would prefer to focus on treating, and am aggravated I may have waited too long to make a decision, and they are sick because of it. I am going to post below the some of the cull boys. The one I noticed it on, and another one that i think I got a really good picture of. I think it will show you what it seems like the beak areas are turning into.

 

[CCinVT]

These boys were born last July/August. They are young and trying to "mate" each other constantly. The spots on their combs are from that. I have 8 I would cull. The one boy born last summer who has been in my bathroom for the past week has no signs on his beak of this that I can see.

This is the boy I noticed it on while worming yesterday. there is another area on the inside edge of his beak. this seems to be the consistent area of symptoms for everyone with the exception of Abe who has the spot on the roof of his mouth.

This Black rooster is also on the cull list. I have the faverolles & abe divided from these black roosters. They are wyndotte cochin crosses, but their coop run areas are divided only by chicken wire so they do have get to each other sometimes. they have seperate food, and water. of the 4 of these boys 2 have spots, and 2 have none noted. This boys was the worse, but sums up what everyones looks like. Lighting made for the best picture.

I hope these pictures help. I don't want to go on not treating Abe. I put iodine, and thyme oil on their mouths this morning, and ACV and thyme oil in their water. I had to feel like i was doing something, but would like to feel like i knew for sure I was treating this. I have read that canker is becoming resistant to antibiotics, and worry about continuously wiping out their systems. I plan on changing their water, and giving them a yogurt treat after coffee and breakfast, and did not treat or do anything to the boys on the "cull list". I also put the ACV and thyme in the hens water, and will probably give them yogurt too. I figure it would be good to get probiotics in them since their super worming.

I"m looking forward to your replies. I have also considered just taking Abe to the vet...

 

[casportpony]

If it is canker I'm thinking it is probably better to start treatment asap and not wait a few day.
I believe you will need to treat each bird with one pill each day for 5 straight days.
Let me call the expert over real quick.

Canker treatment one 250mg Metronidazole pill per day for 5 days straight?
@casportpony

I guess I should start by saying that metronidazole and the other drugs like it are banned or use in food animals, so that is something to consider.

Many people do give a whole 250 mg tablet to full sized fowl, but I give it based on weight, and the amount I use is usually no more than 23 mg per pound of body weight. For canker or histomoniasis I give it once a day for five days, but for enteritis I give it twice a day for at least two weeks.

Does that help?

 

[CCinVT]

I guess I should start by saying that metronidazole and the other drugs like it are banned or use in food animals, so that is something to consider.

Many people do give a whole 250 mg tablet to full sized fowl, but I give it based on weight, and the amount I use is usually no more than 23 mg per pound of body weight. For canker or histomoniasis I give it once a day for five days, but for enteritis I give it twice a day for at least two weeks.

Does that help?

I think that helps.... @casportpony you have helped me with my math and dosing before.... I would prefer to dose by weight. If one tablet is 250, but you would dose 23 per lb... how do you divide up a pill to such small amounts. My roosters that are showing symptoms I could never eat. Abe is basically a pet. Does that also mean that if he fertilized eggs in the future that those potential offspring/roosters could not be eaten or eat the hens eggs? I also take this to think if My hens are not showing symptoms to not treat them because we do eat their eggs.

So canker, and histomoniasis are different, but both protozoan so the same treatment works? Do you think what they have looks like histomoniasis? all the pictures I found online are of internal parts. I could then focus on treating just my 3 boys, and keep beefing up immunity in the rest of my flock while the boys are separate. They did have diarrhea, but the poop change during mud season is what reminded me to get the poop samples done, and I figured it seemed directly related to worms. Abe has had no poop butt, and Brian has had some, but he has been getting ganged up on lately.

 

[casportpony]

I think that helps.... @casportpony you have helped me with my math and dosing before.... I would prefer to dose by weight. If one tablet is 250, but you would dose 23 per lb... how do you divide up a pill to such small amounts.

How much do they weigh? I don't worry too much unless they are really small, so most of mine get 1/2 pill, a whole pill, and the big ones get two pills. One of my references says they can have as much as 45 mg per pound, so keep that in mind.

My roosters that are showing symptoms I could never eat. Abe is basically a pet. Does that also mean that if he fertilized eggs in the future that those potential offspring/roosters could not be eaten?

You aren't supposed to eat treated birds or their eggs, but truth be told, they are probably edible if you wait long enough for the drugs to clear.

I also take this to think if My hens are not showing symptoms to not treat them because we do eat their eggs.

I would not treat the hens.

So canker, and histomoniasis are different, but both protozoan so the same treatment works?

Yeah, it also treat giardia. All three are flagellate protozoas, which is why it works I guess? Brand name is "Flagyl"

Do you think what they have looks like histomoniasis? all the pictures I found online are of internal parts.

No, it's not histomoniasis, I just mentioned it because I wanted to tell people what dose I use and what I use it for. Sorry for the confusion.

I could then focus on treating just my 3 boys, and keep beefing up immunity in the rest of my flock while the boys are separate. They did have diarrhea, but the poop change during mud season is what reminded me to get the poop samples done, and I figured it seemed directly related to worms. Abe has had no poop butt, and Brian has had some, but he has been getting ganged up on lately.

I would treat just the three. You could try adding acidified copper sulfate to the drinking water too. Some say that it's a good preventative.

 

[CCinVT]

So an update on my crew of canker roosters. I ordered the fish zole, and it just arrived yesterday. Took forever. In the mean time I have given my 3 boys (and all the girls) their last dose of worm medicine. Some of the girls have soupy poopy, but I will get them a follow up poop test by next week. Ive given everyone pro biotics to help their belly recover from the super worming dose I gave. I have been changing and disinfecting with white vinegar water buckets 2x a day. I still see no signs of canker in the girls. The 3 boys outside I'm gonna keep also have gotten their water changed frequently, and food dishes disinfected. I also gave them a few days of acv before the probiotics. The spot on the top of a abe's mouth I dabbed it with iodine, and then a qtip saturated in thyme oil I used to dab it directly, and give him a good drip with a clean qtip in his mouth. I did the same with the other 2. I also have been putting thyme oil in their water 1 drop per gallon. I went light because I didn't want to cause more harm then good. Not daily, but for a day, and then fresh water for a few days. After a few dabs on the one on the top of abe's mouth his canker turned darker, and disappeared. There is still a small area on the corner of his beak. I'm gonna dab that tonight. I haven't been going nuts,but had to something while I waited for the fish zole. Seperating them from the other boys has helped, and I see no more signs of it on my 2 faverolle, just the small area on Abe's beak. They are eatting and drinking fine. I'm working up the courage to cull the rest of my roosters this weekend. I've been a vegetarian most of my adult life, but obviously have too many doodles. I don't have the set up now to give them more space. I have to do what's best for them right? My husband says I can't guarantee how someone else would treat them or cull them so I hatched them they are my responsibility ive never killed something that wasnt ill or injured. I haven't given the fish Zola since it just arrived. Since Abe was the worst, and there is none left in his mouth. I'm gonna see if a couple more dabs of thyme will do it for the one spot on his beak. The other 8 untreated boys have gotten worse, and are still fighting with each other. I have been trying to detach myself, and not handle them too much. My husband has been watching a ton of chicken processing videos, and found on of a lady who he says he thinks I can handle doing it like. My roosters are all friendly so I guess it makes this a hard lesson.

 

[Kiki]

I like the way your husband thinks about them being your responsibility.


Can he not do the deed for you?


I am glad to hear the treatment you have been doing has worked for you!
Good job!

I would hold on to the fish zole in case you need it in the future.

 

[CCinVT]

I like the way your husband thinks about them being your responsibility.


Can he not do the deed for you?


I am glad to hear the treatment you have been doing has worked for you!
Good job!

I would hold on to the fish zole in case you need it in the future.

He thinks he could do it, but has never killed anything for any reason. When were were talking it through we agreed I might just be the better option. He got nauseous when he was holding popcorn, and I cut out her bumblefoot!
I have handled them a great deal, and they are all friendly... I know I can hold them in my lap, and they will relax. I have sharp knives. He will be there with me. It will be hard, but a lesson worth learning. Since I raised them... I am the one who handles them... I am the one who can give them a death with dignity that I can feel good enough about. I don't think I could handle worrying about how they were treated if I just passed them or the hard parts off on some one else.

The fish Zola bottle says its good for 3 years. I'm hoping the reduction in flock with help everyone's (hens included) stress level, and I can refocus on getting a healthy flock back!

 

[Kiki]

You can do it.