Cattle Dogs (Queensland) Changing?

[Skyesrocket]

A friend of mine has a beautiful ACD female and I asked her why she didn't breed her. She told me that she bred her once and never would again because the pups were smarter than the owners and it was the pups that suffered because of it.
She was honest about the pups activity level and turned a couple of buyers away because she didn't think they would be a good fit but she still ended up with some of them ending up at the dog pound. Even though she would have gladly taken them back and the buyers knew this. She did recover them from the pound.
She said the pups that went to people that already owned ACDs worked out well in their new homes. And the pups that had jobs to do were fine. Except for one guy that she later found out believed in beating some sense into them. That was the last straw for her and she had her gal fixed.
Her dog had a litter of eleven pups. That's a lot of pups to keep track of. That could be one reason that they are so hard to find now. It would be tough to find 11 qualified homes.
I'm glad you found the perfect dog for you!

 

[armdchicken]

Here's a pic of our ACD, Glacier, she is WAY too smart for her own good lol

 

[dainerra]

Sometimes I think that becoming eligible for AKC registration is a death knell for true working dogs.

it's not the AKC. All they do is issue what amounts to a birth certificate - this dog is the offspring of these dogs.

POPULARITY is the downfall of all breeds. You get people who have no idea about the breed, other than it looked cute in the picture and want to buy one. Good breeders won't sell them one because they know the dog won't be a good fit for them. So they find someone in the paper who has one and they buy one for cheap. Then they start to think "I paid $$ for this dog. If I breed her to Bob's dog, then I will get $$ too!"

Movies and TV are the 2 biggest enemies of any dog breed. There is actually elation in the GSD world that the popularity is finally starting to fade.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Thanks so much for the link Belle!

Shady, your boy is sleek! Super sleek. So interesting that you mention heelers in your area tend to be leaner, as our really lean girl came from VA. I didn't recognize her as a purebred ACD at the time, as I was used to much stockier (not blocky, but stocky) Nevada ACDs. They really do seem to be leaner on the East coast, though I've seen some lean ones out west outside of NV.

Oh my gosh Skye! Phoenix in the snow.... so adorable. XD I can't wait to get a pup with a tail. They have such neat tails, but so many of them are docked, including the tail on our girl. I always try to imagine what it would look like if she had a tail to wag, because she just has this little nub that goes super-speed.

They sure are smart and aware Kimmie. To post an image, click the little picture of the house 5 icons from the smiley face at the top of the reply box. This will let you insert an image either from your computer files or a URL. I usually upload a photo to photobucket.com, then paste the "direct image link" URL it provides. You can resize your images now in your reply by just clicking the corner of them and moving it inward or out, which is really nice.

Thanks for sharing that Guinea Fowl! I've seen a few Australian-located breeders with blocky dogs, but they are all show breeders. Starting to think it originated with show trends and is making it's way into some of the working lines here in the US. Some of the local farmers are advertising that they are "improving their bloodlines with heavy-boned AKC registered dogs". :/ I'm guessing people want papered dogs, and papered ACDs seem to be primarily from show lines (I mean, a lot more so than other breeds) as a lot of our working ACDs aren't papered. Not sure, that just is how it strikes me.

Skye, I bet guinea fowl can answer this one much better, but as I understand it, 'pure' dingoes are getting harder to find, with the majority having some level of interbreeding with local dogs. I've seen some photos of maremma crosses, but many look to be ACD and kelpie crosses (I guess not surprising since it sounds like they are pretty common there!). The photos here may be graphic to some, but here is a pretty large collection of photos:
http://www.feralsout.com/galleryhybrids1.htm
This one also looks to have cattle dog in it:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jNJK_EUqVtmSWCls7O9bow
Earlier I was talking about the clean mouth corners of ACDs (it is in the standard for them too as: "the lips are tight and clean"):
Our girl

Mouth corners? I have no mouth corners. X)

Pure dingos have the clean look too:


Where as, here are some typical cattle dog mixes. Check out their mouth corners:
My past 'Texas heeler' (ACD/Australian shepherd mix) boy




I wonder if the clean lips come from the dingo bred into them? And in turn from their Asian ancestors?

CA: Agh, so sorry you are running into the same trouble. I really, really hope the blocky look doesn't completely take over. X( I...don't think I'd be at all interested in ACDs anymore if that happened. But great to hear you guys found the perfect dog for you! That's just crazy hearing about stress on a working breed like the ACD being put upon papers and not performance and original function. Not surprised though as that has been the trend here too. People seem to want papered pups, without considering what the breed is all about. I want a pup from good stock that I can see in action and know has been bred to be hardy, papers or no papers.

Glacier is beautiful Armd! Love that expression. Keep those photos coming guys.

Dain, I think that can be true for sure. For the ACD though, it seems it may be conformation showing behind the seemingly increasing blockiness (Not AKC-tied specifically. But, people who show tend to be registered through them, so AKC registered ACDs may tend towards the blocky side...at least, that's what seems to be the trend in this state). Definitely true though that I see a TON of ACDs in the shelter, and young pups being rehomed immediately. Definitely seems to be an impluse buy side to that, and most ACDs are a terrible, terrible impulse buy. The nipping aspect alone seems to land them in the pound.

 

[Skyesrocket]

Thanks for those links. I imagined dingos are like coyotes and wolves are here. Killing livestock.
I'm starting to wonder if the blocky head is just a result of breeding ACD's to ACD's. The leaness comes from the dingo. The more you breed the ACD's to each other the more bone you might get. I'm just guessing on this.
punkadoodle the dog in the last picture you posted looks like it could have aussie shep in it.
I like it that Phoenix has a tail. To me the tail is benefical in balance. After seeing the bobbed tail dogs posted here. Which are all beautiful by the way. I started watching Phoenix's tail as he ran and played and he does seem to use it quite a bit.
Sadly, I emailed Phoenix's past owner to let him know how he was doing. I got an email back saying his owner died in January. He was a young guy in his 20's. The cancer was very aggresive. His sister told me that Eric is probably smiling down on how happy and accomplished in his job that his dog is.
AKC is a little more than a registry as far as getting AKC status on a dog breed. I remember when Chinese Shar-Pei applied for AKC recognition. I had Shar-Pei at the time and was a member of the national club.. The AKC came back and said they wanted to see the eye problems being worked on more and a few other things...can't remember now. I think it had something to do with the difference between the brush coat and the horse coat. But there were things that the akc wanted to see addressed by the national club and breeders.
I think the CKC is more like just a registry. But you are right that tv dogs and whatever the current dog craze is usually bad news for any breed. Remember when everyone had to have a dalmation puppy for their kids because of 101 Dalmations? Or the Chihuauas due to Paris Hilton. It is getting hard to find a chi that really looks like a chi anymore.
Keep this thread going. I love it and love the pics and stories about everyones ACDs! Can you imagine getting a bunch of them together at a dog park? Lol...we will all have to stand on picnic tables so we don't get knocked over! That would be something to see!

 

[kimmie6067]

All ACD's are beautiful!! "To smart for their own good" Here's a pic of my Tommie Girl saying "so there! You darn ball" I feel they have to be somewhat stocky or else they wouldn't be able to withstand a kick from a cow, also they have to be self thinkers to be able to out smart the livestock, oh and maybe us sometimes, hehe.

 

[kimmie6067]

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Kimmie, yay, you got images up and running! I just love the brains of the breed. <3

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These are from the most recent local postings, and the descriptions that came with them:

Non-registered:
Close to what I am looking for. This guy was just listed solo though, as are most of the ACDs that appeal to me locally (the shelter ACDs are also always the leaner kind, even when not showing signs of being mixed).

Unregistered pet finder shelter dogs in my area (wide look range, some not pure, but all what I think of when I think "heeler":







AKC registered:
This dog and the following three are all from the same place, and have past generations and the pups on site. This is not an ACD to me personally, and it seems far from the breed origins too. :/ My husband thought the photo dimensions got skewed when he first ran into the blocky dogs online.

Perfectly gorgeous dog, but if I saw it running around, I would honestly think APT or Staffie/ACD mix, not ACD.

His mother was imported from Australian champion show lines:
"Blocky head" is advertised in relation to showing as he is being offered for stud service



So right now, I'm sure thinking the blockiness is coming from show lines, and that it is a deviation from the breed's past. It seems to be for appearance reasons too, rather than to produce a better working dog. Not sure if that is accurate, but sure feeling bummed about the lack of leaner ACD breeders around here. Glad to hear they seem to be staying lean out east though. Worth the drive to me if that is the case.

 

[Skyesrocket]

Keep trying! You will find the right one. Do you prefer the red or blue? I have a red...but would love to add a blue someday. My preference is the leaner dog.
Why don't you email some of the show breeders and ask them about how the blockiness came about? I might do that myself just out of curiosity.
I can see where the heavier body might hold up better against cattle. But a good dog wouldn't get close enough to the cattle to get kicked or butted.
I was talking to my neighbor who trims dairy cow hooves. He said a good heeler can stay back and move the cows slowly without spooking them. Dairy farmers prefer this because spooked cows cuts down on milk production.
That is how Phoenix herds. He makes a wide sweeping run around the goats to get them in a group and then slowly moves them forward. He doesn't have to get close to them because he has taught them that if they don't group and move then he will move in on them.
My husband can't tell when he herds them because he keeps expecting to see Phoenix bark and nip at them. Phoenix doesn't bark or nip when he herds. He will send all of the goats to the barn and my husband says, "but he didn't do anything?". Well, yeah he did he sent them right where I wanted them to be. My husband scratches his head and walks away. Lol...

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Quote: I actually love them both! As for the blues, I like both the blues that only have the black markings, and also the blues that have red and tan on them (like our current girl). I love, love, love chocolates, but it seems to be really hard to find actual purebred chocolate ACDs and not mixes. One guy even mixes chihuahuas with ACDs and calls them "mini ACDs" and includes the color chocolate. XP Ugh. I like the look of the stumpy tails as well, but I haven't actually met any in person so I don't know how they are temperament wise.


Quote: That's...a really good idea! Let me know if you turn up anything as well.




Quote: That's hilarious! XD But wow, I can only hope our pup will have that sort of working style.