I have 3 dogs here currently, 2 of which are rescues that just could not work out in their former situation. One was on death row when I got the call about him, the sheriff would not allow him back into his state. Long story short version he was sent to a 'trainer' after the last incident (attacking and biting the mail woman) who happened to be out of state since they lived near the border. After the investigation the sheriff ruled the dog had to be put down but had no jurisdiction since the dog was out of state. So the owners agreed to either put him down or rehome him out of state, and after a few contacts they sent me an e-mail and he came to Canada.
Both dogs that I have here that could not be trusted or kept in their former situation were raised with NILIF and they tried clicker or bait training to get further with them. Sorry, it just don't work alone. Dogs need social structure and they need strong leadership. Not to be bullied, not to be abused or beaten, not to be forced to roll over or even yelled at but certainly to be properly dominated. From this they get security and calmness. Both these dogs are happy and enthusiastic farm dogs now that are totally trusted with livestock and human visitors coming and going from my farm.
If your having any success with NILIF or clicker training it's because you have the basics down pat first. Don't get me wrong, I like positive reinforcement and use it lots, but it's not a stand alone. To say it's a full meal deal and tell others it's all they need is as much a disservice to dogs as the oversimplifications I see on Cesar's show. Fergus got himself onto death row due to this, and he is an easy dog to deal with really, IMO. He just needed strong leadership. Yes he is strong willed and needed a bit more than some but I never once 'forced' him onto his back. Not physically anyway, but I have given him the eye and moved into his shoulder till chose to roll. Dangerous? yes, he came up on me once since he had never had any leadership before in his life so this is not something I tell everyone to do, but if you want to rescue a 7 year old dog that has been aggressive at his will all his life, and change his ways into yours you need to think maybe he will challenge you. 7 more years of NILIF is not going to cut it. 7 more years of bait training is only going to reinforce with this dog that IF he wants a treat he can have one by doing some trick. He has a list of tricks that was 2 pages long by e-mail and none of those kept him out of jail.
Add to those 2 dogs the 20 or so I have rescued before them and the 10 years I did training professionally and I'm sure that neither clicker or Cesar or NILIF way is THE right way. Common sense says the dogs are not that simple. I have not watched more than about 6 of Cesar's shows but I have never seen him 'force' anything on a dog, certainly not a roll. I have seen him use it as a relaxation tool, which I thought was interesting, after the dog was down doing massage rather than just letting them rest there which was what I was taught and doing.
Why I can't advise anyone to even try NILIF at all is after talking to the 'trainer' that Fergus went to after the last bite, and got the book the owner was raising him by. Sorry, the premise that they exuded was that you NEVER use any dominance or aggression, not even a leash pop on a dog or else you will get aggression. It is the cause of all aggression I was told. So talking to the trainer he was last sent to, who was well aware of his reason for being there, I asked, but you have aggression in this dog, he has attacked again, after years of nothing but NILIF and bait training what are you going to do different? Nothing he said, the dog needs to come around. There is nothing more to be done, he works for his rewards or he gets put back in his kennel. Yesterday he wanted to chase kids off the school bus walking up the road, he would not work for his reward so I just pulled him back to the kennel and put him away. Now anyone with years of aggression training like Policework or Schutzhund KNOWS that is absolutely the WRONG thing to do. And they kept this dog in a wide nylon collar so that he was "comfortable" and never felt discouraged, or so they called it. Gah! So then they kennel him up so he gets frustrated and pent up and then call me back to move up the shipping date because he is being destructive in his kennel, chewing and pacing, jumping and trying to climb out. Go figure!
ETA what I said to the owner over this is 'if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always gotten' If you have used a training method for a while, used it right and given it a good go and it's not working for you, your critter, or your situation MOVE ON! Do not let anyone or group of trainers no matter how convincing they may seem have you keep trying the same thing for SEVEN years. This dog's first aggression incident was before he was 2 and he had never had anything but NILIF. That right there would tell me it's not the right thing for her and this dog. But she was interested in agility and everyone was using NILIF and the club would not allow her to continue if she did not use it and stick with a particular trainer or one he approves of. One that had accredited training in this, which for me makes it seem more of a cult than not.
And no, I don't have a much higher opinion of the horse trainers that do their own single minded thing and accredited training of others.
Both dogs that I have here that could not be trusted or kept in their former situation were raised with NILIF and they tried clicker or bait training to get further with them. Sorry, it just don't work alone. Dogs need social structure and they need strong leadership. Not to be bullied, not to be abused or beaten, not to be forced to roll over or even yelled at but certainly to be properly dominated. From this they get security and calmness. Both these dogs are happy and enthusiastic farm dogs now that are totally trusted with livestock and human visitors coming and going from my farm.
If your having any success with NILIF or clicker training it's because you have the basics down pat first. Don't get me wrong, I like positive reinforcement and use it lots, but it's not a stand alone. To say it's a full meal deal and tell others it's all they need is as much a disservice to dogs as the oversimplifications I see on Cesar's show. Fergus got himself onto death row due to this, and he is an easy dog to deal with really, IMO. He just needed strong leadership. Yes he is strong willed and needed a bit more than some but I never once 'forced' him onto his back. Not physically anyway, but I have given him the eye and moved into his shoulder till chose to roll. Dangerous? yes, he came up on me once since he had never had any leadership before in his life so this is not something I tell everyone to do, but if you want to rescue a 7 year old dog that has been aggressive at his will all his life, and change his ways into yours you need to think maybe he will challenge you. 7 more years of NILIF is not going to cut it. 7 more years of bait training is only going to reinforce with this dog that IF he wants a treat he can have one by doing some trick. He has a list of tricks that was 2 pages long by e-mail and none of those kept him out of jail.
Add to those 2 dogs the 20 or so I have rescued before them and the 10 years I did training professionally and I'm sure that neither clicker or Cesar or NILIF way is THE right way. Common sense says the dogs are not that simple. I have not watched more than about 6 of Cesar's shows but I have never seen him 'force' anything on a dog, certainly not a roll. I have seen him use it as a relaxation tool, which I thought was interesting, after the dog was down doing massage rather than just letting them rest there which was what I was taught and doing.
Why I can't advise anyone to even try NILIF at all is after talking to the 'trainer' that Fergus went to after the last bite, and got the book the owner was raising him by. Sorry, the premise that they exuded was that you NEVER use any dominance or aggression, not even a leash pop on a dog or else you will get aggression. It is the cause of all aggression I was told. So talking to the trainer he was last sent to, who was well aware of his reason for being there, I asked, but you have aggression in this dog, he has attacked again, after years of nothing but NILIF and bait training what are you going to do different? Nothing he said, the dog needs to come around. There is nothing more to be done, he works for his rewards or he gets put back in his kennel. Yesterday he wanted to chase kids off the school bus walking up the road, he would not work for his reward so I just pulled him back to the kennel and put him away. Now anyone with years of aggression training like Policework or Schutzhund KNOWS that is absolutely the WRONG thing to do. And they kept this dog in a wide nylon collar so that he was "comfortable" and never felt discouraged, or so they called it. Gah! So then they kennel him up so he gets frustrated and pent up and then call me back to move up the shipping date because he is being destructive in his kennel, chewing and pacing, jumping and trying to climb out. Go figure!
ETA what I said to the owner over this is 'if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always gotten' If you have used a training method for a while, used it right and given it a good go and it's not working for you, your critter, or your situation MOVE ON! Do not let anyone or group of trainers no matter how convincing they may seem have you keep trying the same thing for SEVEN years. This dog's first aggression incident was before he was 2 and he had never had anything but NILIF. That right there would tell me it's not the right thing for her and this dog. But she was interested in agility and everyone was using NILIF and the club would not allow her to continue if she did not use it and stick with a particular trainer or one he approves of. One that had accredited training in this, which for me makes it seem more of a cult than not.
And no, I don't have a much higher opinion of the horse trainers that do their own single minded thing and accredited training of others.
