Cesar millan v. clicker training

[redhen]

Quote:
And when a dog in a real pack objects to being rolled, it bites the face of the dog rolling it. So when a person rolls a dog and the dog objects...

nope... no.. they dont ALWAYS fight the other dog. If the dog knows its position in the pack it will submit.... But if it is challenging position..then yes, a bad dog fight can occur.
AND.. the roll ONLY works if the dog is submissive to it... you have to know what dogs you can use it on and you have to know HOW to do it correctly..... if you use it on the wrong dog.. yes, you CAN get your face bit off...
He knows what hes doing...

I dont do the roll... i learned my lesson with it... You have to REALLY know what you are doing...
although..i WILL put my PUP on her back sometimes so she gets the idea while shes very young that i am alpha....

 

[OccamsTazer]

Yep, Red and others are right on about that. Gotta have a willing submission for it to work.
Cesar aften works with dogs that are at the point of either he helps them or they get put down. I'm ok with forceful domination in that situation. I'm pretty sure his "red zone" dogs are less traumatized by being dominated than they would be by, y'know...death.

I don't think having a clear pack structure can be equated to harm, as has been suggested. My dogs certainly respect me, and if they cross a line and I give them "the look" they display submissive behaviors. Are they traumatized and abused? Absolutely not!
They are all happy, healthy dogs who bring me toys, love to wrassle, love to go swimming, etc. Three of the four were *not* healthy and happy when they came to me. A solid, proper pack structure is key to a mentally and emotionally healthy dog.

Fun tidbit: A few years ago I had a roomate who caused a lot of interpersonal conflict. She had a lot of what Cesar would call negative energy. Her instability caused waves of chaos in our pack that affected my dogs (two at the time, not the current four) in a number of ways. We had all sorts of naughty behaviors crop up, shredding and so forth. My girls who had grown up together had several very nasty fights. Why? They had an unstable, messy pack. Today it is just me and DH in the house and we have mellow, well-behaved dogs. They are not perfect of course, but we don't have problems with anxiety and misdirected aggression, ever.

Jamie, I agree that flooding is sometimes the only solution for the kind of issues you describe. Yes, it might stress the dog a bit, but overcoming obstacles is stressful!

 

[chickerdoodle]

Quote:
And when a dog in a real pack objects to being rolled, it bites the face of the dog rolling it. So when a person rolls a dog and the dog objects...

nope... no.. they dont ALWAYS fight the other dog. If the dog knows its position in the pack it will submit.... But if it is challenging position..then yes, a bad dog fight can occur.
AND.. the roll ONLY works if the dog is submissive to it... you have to know what dogs you can use it on and you have to know HOW to do it correctly..... if you use it on the wrong dog.. yes, you CAN get your face bit off...
He knows what hes doing...

I dont do the roll... i learned my lesson with it... You have to REALLY know what you are doing...
although..i WILL put my PUP on her back sometimes so she gets the idea while shes very young that i am alpha....

I have been a professional animal behaviorist for over twenty years. Please never, I repeat never roll any dog. No reason to do it--it just confuses the dog as they do know we are not dogs--its been proven over and over again by the most respected and well educated behaviorists. In wolves if you use dominance techniques you will get bitten eventually but not if the relationship you have with them is based on trust and respect. Cesar does not really know the real "whys" but tries to make some of it seem easy to understand for the public. Unfortunately some of what he is doing is not based on accurate scientific research or by well educated and experienced professionals that span the globe. He is doing what he feels is the best thing--by his gut so to speak even if he is only using old school methods dressed up for a good show. I believe he thinks he is right but his work has too many flaws--some dangerous. Leadership is important as he says however, with canines you need to earn the leader role by respect and its not done by force as violence begets violence. Pack mentality is important to know, but remember you are a human and they do know the difference. And yes, the entire family must get along or there will be disharmony. Its like any spoiled child--if they do something unacceptable you need to teach them what is acceptable and what makes you happy with consistency and praise for the proper behavior. Dogs really want to please you! The professional behaviorists understand the faults with his methods and most have been dealing with the inevitable problems arising from it. I will add (again) I don't totally despise him as he has brought hope to those with pets who need help as well as emphasize the need for proper exercise for dogs to be better pets. I just hope they find a local well educated professional and not just watch Cesar on TV.

On flooding--individual fears such as nail clipping (common one) can be helped by flooding techniques but when the dog shows a tiny bit of acceptance praise is offered then that is what I consider short duration flooding and is acceptable. There are more dramatic fears that if flooding is used it may cause worse problems.

 

[yoker]

Wow lots of opinions.
I think it sure depends on the dog and the situation.
Has anyone ever read any of his books? What did you think?

 

[McSpin]

Cesar is not a dog trainer in the traditional sense. He manipulates problem behavior and mostly that of the dog owner - sometimes with physical methods and sometimes with purely psychological methods. People can spew all they want about dog behaviorists and studies and other stuff, but the fact is, his methods work, and not only well, but pretty quickly in most cases. Is he perfect? Heck no, but from what I can see he's more successful that most so-called dog trainers and behaviorists I've observed. I laugh when I hear people talk about dominance as if it were a bad thing. It's also pretty funny when they talk as if they know what a dog thinks and what knowledge it has. Pure bunk. All one knows is what behavior they observe. The rest is conjecture.

 

[bantylover]

Yes, wow, lots of opinions.

I also believe it depends on the dog and the situation. There is a lot of information out there and as with horse training, you collect all the knowledge you can because sometimes you run out of ideas and need to step it up a bit. Anyways, I haven't read any of his books, but I have watched and have used some of his techniques and they work well for me and my four dogs. I did recently purchase his magazine to take a look at and there was really very little in depth training information in it. It is mostly canine adoption information. The articles that were on training did not offer enough information for an experienced dog person let alone someone new to dogs.

Aside from all that I think he is quite handsome and healthy looking! Must be all that dog walking he does aye?

 

[CountryMom]

Well, since so many think rolling a dog is so WRONG, I will sadly inform my dear sweet Abby Dog that we cannot play that way anymore. I won't blow kisses on her tummy and let her get to running only to come back and roll over again for more. Then when she is worn out she showers my face with kisses.

On a serious note, I have to agree with McSpin. Like with my horse training, every situation and animal is different. I cannot imagine that my two dogs would be any challange for someone like Cesar who deals with extreme cases.

 

[ack123]

Lets all remember that he is the one they cal when there is no other option but to euthanize the dog. he rehabs agressive dogs, and those that have been pampered like little children by their owners. I have watched most the episodes and have never seen one where the dog was showing fear because of him. Looks like that only happens when the owners decide to interfere. i remember this one where this lady involved with a rescue/shelter got in touch with him through an event because they were going to kill the dog she was fostering, and he was the resort. He saved the dogs life. He has also personally purchased or adopted ogs and rehabbed them, otherwise they would have been euthanized. We don't have to agree with his methods, and there are idiots out there that use them without knowing what they are doing. However what he has done has saved the lives of quite a dogs. One thing I do find ironic is that he openly supports dog rescues. Yet they turn around and stab him in the back because they don't agree with his methods. What ever. They seem to work when used properly. even his rolling method doesn't look as abusive as some people think it is, nor dangerous. He's not encouraging people to get in the dogs face, just to properly to teach them how to dominate it so that its not getting away with murder.

 

[redhen]

Quote:
nope... no.. they dont ALWAYS fight the other dog. If the dog knows its position in the pack it will submit.... But if it is challenging position..then yes, a bad dog fight can occur.
AND.. the roll ONLY works if the dog is submissive to it... you have to know what dogs you can use it on and you have to know HOW to do it correctly..... if you use it on the wrong dog.. yes, you CAN get your face bit off...
He knows what hes doing...

I dont do the roll... i learned my lesson with it... You have to REALLY know what you are doing...
although..i WILL put my PUP on her back sometimes so she gets the idea while shes very young that i am alpha....

I have been a professional animal behaviorist for over twenty years. Please never, I repeat never roll any dog. No reason to do it--it just confuses the dog as they do know we are not dogs--its been proven over and over again by the most respected and well educated behaviorists. In wolves if you use dominance techniques you will get bitten eventually but not if the relationship you have with them is based on trust and respect. Cesar does not really know the real "whys" but tries to make some of it seem easy to understand for the public. Unfortunately some of what he is doing is not based on accurate scientific research or by well educated and experienced professionals that span the globe. He is doing what he feels is the best thing--by his gut so to speak even if he is only using old school methods dressed up for a good show. I believe he thinks he is right but his work has too many flaws--some dangerous. Leadership is important as he says however, with canines you need to earn the leader role by respect and its not done by force as violence begets violence. Pack mentality is important to know, but remember you are a human and they do know the difference. And yes, the entire family must get along or there will be disharmony. Its like any spoiled child--if they do something unacceptable you need to teach them what is acceptable and what makes you happy with consistency and praise for the proper behavior. Dogs really want to please you! The professional behaviorists understand the faults with his methods and most have been dealing with the inevitable problems arising from it. I will add (again) I don't totally despise him as he has brought hope to those with pets who need help as well as emphasize the need for proper exercise for dogs to be better pets. I just hope they find a local well educated professional and not just watch Cesar on TV.

On flooding--individual fears such as nail clipping (common one) can be helped by flooding techniques but when the dog shows a tiny bit of acceptance praise is offered then that is what I consider short duration flooding and is acceptable. There are more dramatic fears that if flooding is used it may cause worse problems.

I said that i DONT roll my dogs...

But i DO put my pup on her back now and then as we are playing and stuff.. just so she knows that i can
do it..
i handle her anyway i will want to handle her as an adult... and when she is grown i may want her to lay calmly on her back for me at some point in time... so i do it now when she is a pup...
makes sense to me...

 

[OccamsTazer]

Countrymom, can I frame that post?

Perfect example of a dog giving willing submission in a happy way!

I've read Cesar's first book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's not really a dog guide, more autobiographical, but still a great read.