Cesar millan v. clicker training

[greathorse]

We are quickly becoming a society of right-wrong, good bad, black or white, when the truth is that there is a huge gray distance between. It seems that any time there is a discussion about training, about farming techniques, grass vs. grain in beef production etc there must be this huge outcry of which is the right way and which is wrong.

I simply see none of it quite as simple as that. I think the real bad training is when there is none. The real bad dogs are the one's treated as though they were human and often the dogs much like the kids in the equation are spoiled rotten, have no conscience and are just plain rude.

I think there are many many ways to deal with dogs, horses, chickens and one's farm/ land without assuming that one is doing it "right" and one is 'wrong". In most cases it has to do with what works, what is preferred or what we believe. What I believe, what you believe or your choice of technique vs mine has very little to do with the truth it only has to do with what we believe to be true or real.

Just sayin

 

[chickerdoodle]

Quote:
I have been a professional animal behaviorist for over twenty years. Please never, I repeat never roll any dog. No reason to do it--it just confuses the dog as they do know we are not dogs--its been proven over and over again by the most respected and well educated behaviorists. In wolves if you use dominance techniques you will get bitten eventually but not if the relationship you have with them is based on trust and respect. Cesar does not really know the real "whys" but tries to make some of it seem easy to understand for the public. Unfortunately some of what he is doing is not based on accurate scientific research or by well educated and experienced professionals that span the globe. He is doing what he feels is the best thing--by his gut so to speak even if he is only using old school methods dressed up for a good show. I believe he thinks he is right but his work has too many flaws--some dangerous. Leadership is important as he says however, with canines you need to earn the leader role by respect and its not done by force as violence begets violence. Pack mentality is important to know, but remember you are a human and they do know the difference. And yes, the entire family must get along or there will be disharmony. Its like any spoiled child--if they do something unacceptable you need to teach them what is acceptable and what makes you happy with consistency and praise for the proper behavior. Dogs really want to please you! The professional behaviorists understand the faults with his methods and most have been dealing with the inevitable problems arising from it. I will add (again) I don't totally despise him as he has brought hope to those with pets who need help as well as emphasize the need for proper exercise for dogs to be better pets. I just hope they find a local well educated professional and not just watch Cesar on TV.

On flooding--individual fears such as nail clipping (common one) can be helped by flooding techniques but when the dog shows a tiny bit of acceptance praise is offered then that is what I consider short duration flooding and is acceptable. There are more dramatic fears that if flooding is used it may cause worse problems.

I said that i DONT roll my dogs...

But i DO put my pup on her back now and then as we are playing and stuff.. just so she knows that i can
do it..
i handle her anyway i will want to handle her as an adult... and when she is grown i may want her to lay calmly on her back for me at some point in time... so i do it now when she is a pup...
makes sense to me...

Sorry redhen--I was only using the idea of rolling--sorry if it seemed I was talking to you specifically!

I also will mention I am sure everyone knows a dog can tell if you are giving a tummy rub and kissing their belly its all in fun. Dogs are the masters of body language and know if you're being playful. I rub and kiss each of our dog's cute bellys! Our ex-military Belgian Malinois loves it and is a big, goofy lap dog with us!

 

[chickerdoodle]

Quote:
Well said. We have to agree to disagree as we all have the right to what we believe in.

 

[ninny]

I must say that i don't like most of what cesar does. Yes i think he does a lot of good but he bugs me. I've only watch a few shows but wasn't happy with what i saw. The one show he got bite and he was showing it off like it was a medal. No one should ever push a dog that far. This dog was furious and cesar just didn't care. All he had to do was let the dog calm down and it would have walked out of the bushes but cesar kept trying to grab him. A different one showed him picking up a doberman and slamming it on the ground in front of another dog. He said he was teaching the dog to submit to other dogs. This was in the middle of a dog park with loose dogs everywhere. Again not smart. That other dog was loose and could have attack cesar or the dobe. Another one was a cocker spainel who ate paper stuff. Cesar said the dog need a outlet for enegry. Good point not so smart idea. He wanted the dog to use its noise so he want to have the dog track things. His idea of tracking was for the owner to make a chicken smoothie and smear it on the ground. umm what? The dog was walking around the yard licking the grass. How in the world is that tracking? The kicker for me was a jack russel that barked at his owners motorcyle. Cesar put a choke collar on the dog and held off the ground by the leash untill it stop moving and just hung there. He said it was submitting no it was blacking out. The dog just laid there and slowy got back up afterwards.

Clicker training is kinda fun. I have a lab mix who has a short attention span so i tried it. I dont like having to use treats. So i stopped with the treats and clicked, praised instead. Works nicely. Found that tossing a ball for her after she gets it right works best though. Clicker and treats works great with cats though!

Every dog is different. You have to be pack leader but packs work as a team. I really think people forget that.

my question for the op is why are you asking? Do have a probelm dog or getting a puppy?

 

[bantylover]

Quote:
Hoorah to that!

 

[Eggstra New]

I just started getting into clicker training and I love it. My dog responds to it really well. It is a very positive way of training.

 

[Tangle]

The problem is most want a quick fix regardless of outcome. The use of dominance theory, shock collars and the other hundreds of devices being used to control behavior prove this point all these only suppress behavior and never fix the actual problem. There is always motivation behind a behavior; a reason the dog is doing what it is doing the goal is to figure out the reason then change the thought process. If all that is done is to suppress a behavior thought process will not change and repeatedly the same problems will reappear.
Have dogs benefited from his methods, I ‘m sure some have however the repercussions from a public who use his methods in error have left a wake of injury and dead dogs. It has been stated before but bears repeating dogs really just want to please us. There are better training methods that foster a positive trusting relationship.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
I agree with this!

I don't really watch TV and have only seen fragments of Cesar's methods and skimmed one of his books. I don't get to see him "rolling" a dog and I don't know what the problem would be with doing it. I've done it to one of my dogs and it doesn't hurt him in the least bit....he learns quickly with this method. I've seen my dominant female use this method to discipline him when he is too rough or annoying with her...its quick and over with quickly. It stops the unwanted behaviour immediately. Actually, I really don't have to really ROLL him as he submits almost immediately when I reach for his scruff and use a stern voice. I just bear down a second and give him a quick shake of the scruff. I've used this method on him a total of two times in his 3 years. He usually just responds to my tone of voice and doesn't need any disciplinary measures.

I wouldn't say this dog has been confused by this method or didn't understand....he has never repeated the undesirable behaviour, though, so in my book this works.

I've also used the scruff shake and a stern voice with one of my sister's unruly dogs that was chasing her poultry and woudn't stop. The behaviour stopped immediately and that dog followed me around the rest of the day, eager to please and calm as can be. Previously this dog wouldn't even come when called. I'd say that there is a time and place for certain kinds of discipline for dogs.

What works for one may not work for another. Opinions vary on here but most seem to lean towards treating dogs like they are delicate children and must not be corrected and always be given positive reinforcement. That's nice in theory and I'm sure it works most of the time but it requires that one be around the dog most of the time in order to catch it doing desirable behaviour vs. undesirable. Some of us don't have the luxury of that much time with our dogs.

For the record, I have two sweet, socialized, obedient dogs who are not a bit confused or broken...just normal dogs.

 

[chickerdoodle]

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Exactly. I have had to help solve many of the repercussions and I also know many other behaviorists have as well. Its easy to say his methods work when you never see or hear of the serious problems some of his methods have caused.

 

[McSpin]

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Do you have examples of dogs Cesar has caused a serious problem with? Or, are you referring to someone you thought was using his method? I've watched all his shows, and never has he done anything that caused any dog to suffer in any way on the show. Are you privy to inside information that can be verified?

E-collars don't just suppress behavior. They are used to direct behavior. They grab the attention of the dog so it can then concentrate on the command. They are tremendous tools in the hands of a knowledgeable person. When used properly the dog is never hurt and from everything I've seen, they seem to enjoy the training session. They will also learn the lesson very quickly. In my opinion, people who believe that proper training should be only be positive in nature, simply have an agenda they're pushing. Optimal training will employ positive and negative rewards.