Cesar millan v. clicker training

[chickerdoodle]

They train chickens with clickers! They make excellent students but you must think fast as they do everything very quickly after the signal.

One of the worst problems I have personally been asked to consultant on was a man who got severely bitten trying to dominate his dog. He was meticulous and careful about following the steps Cesar discussed so he felt he could do what Cesar did. The dog bit him several times on the face. Cesar's methods taught the owner how teach the dog to no longer warn with a growl so the dog didn't and just started biting the owner. Cesar does have a caveat on the show to not try of his methods without a professional trainer for good reasons--liability and he knows some methods can only be done by a professional. Victoria Stillwell has a better handle on this and I appreciate her methods.

Seemingly aggressive dogs can often be reacting out of fear (fear biters) and confusion. Trust and clear instructions that the dog can understand must be established before you can solve the problem. Cesar uses the quick, sometimes brutal fix that may not last but looks great on TV.

I don't want to trash on all his methods as some are quite good! I especially appreciate that he does give hope to those who have dogs with serious problems and that is a great breakthrough

He also follows some basics all professionals recommend (or at least all should) to balance the dogs behavior by exercise--you can't ask a dog who is so full of energy and therefore anxiety to behave perfectly without an outlet for that energy.

Someone mentioned Kohler--a trainer who did train WW dogs but those dogs had so many issues they were either destroyed or left behind once the war was over (some of the handlers did want to take them back but they would've been great liabilities)--an issue that truly saddens my heart. His sometimes cruel methods were dropped for more positive methods several years ago. I actually adopted an ex-military dog who is five years old now who we absolutely adore and she is well socialized and lives happily in our suburban home. Positive methods are trust building and clear instructions last a lifetime.

Cesar's methods can work on dogs who do not have more extreme behavior issues and therefore may last as during the process the dog may figure out what you are asking of them which is the key to success along with consistency. I rather a dog who thinks what can I do to make everyone happy instead of one not wanting to do something because of a severe repercussion. Both methods work but it's a personal choice. However, if it is a serious issue you need to find the root of the issue and work on helping the dog understand exactly what you want and seek a local professional behaviorist. Again I recommend Dr. Patrica McConnell's books--not only do they explain dog's behavior but its full of humor and great tools on how to identify what is going on and how to solve the problem.

 

[McSpin]

Quote:
How you word something makes a world of difference. You see, I'd rather have a dog that knows I'm the leader and respects my position, so no temptation causes it to do something that everyone will regret. No repercussion need be severe if you do it properly. It simply needs to be consistent and such that the dog knows he simply cannot do certain behaviors.

I'll never forget a friend of mine who trained his big rottie male with nothing but positive reinforcement. It was a very well trained dog, at least well trained in following the commands he had been taught. I happened to be in his house one day, when my friend accidentally poked the dog in the eye when reaching to put a collar on the dog. You should have seen the holes that dog put all the way through my friend's hand. Now imagine if that had been a child that poked the dog. I'll guarantee you that out of the many dozens of dogs I've owned, nothing would ever provoke one enough to bite me. They all know I'm the dominant one and that was taught to them without the use of any pain, or mistreatment of any kind. It would never occur to one that biting me was an option in any situation. This rottweiler had no such training. I'm not saying it couldn't have been trained with strictly positive reinforcement to not bite under any circumstance, just that it wouldn't have been the easiest, most effective way of doing it. Also, no one should get the idea that my dogs cower when I'm around. They are not mistreated in any way. Anyone watching us interact would come away thinking they were as happy as dogs could possibly be.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Several people on this thread have made the statement "dogs want to please us".

I have to disagree, quite strongly.

I have studied dog behavior for 15+ years, went to school for it, and have 10+ years of professional training and behavior consulting under my belt. I have very very rarely come across a dog that has that temperament quallity. The I-live-for-pleasing-my-master-just-for-the-sake-of-pleasing-him. Those dogs are out there but few and far between. I have owned several dogs over the years, and only ONE of them was a true "people pleaser" by his natural temperament.

I think this generalized myth that dogs want to please us is a lot of the problems why people have such issues with their dogs. They take for granted that the dog will behave because it is a dog and they are a person. That is silly.

To qualify what i am saying: there are breeds that are more prone to this temperament quality, and there are circumstances in which a dog will be come a true people pleaser, and sometimes the quility only comes out in a dog when the owner and dog have a special chemistry in their relationship.

Dogs are dogs, they do not worship us. They live to please themselves, they survive by doing what they think will benefit them the most. That is what animals do. It is up to us as humans that choose to have dogs to look at each one honestly and decide to train the dogs, and meet its needs as the canine species. It is sad that there is a need for someone line Cesar Milan to get on TV and show the world how messed up many dog/owner relationships are. If people met dogs needs and respected them as the animal they are we wouldn't need so many dog trainers to fix the relationships we have.

 

[redhen]

Quote:
How you word something makes a world of difference. You see, I'd rather have a dog that knows I'm the leader and respects my position, so no temptation causes it to do something that everyone will regret. No repercussion need be severe if you do it properly. It simply needs to be consistent and such that the dog knows he simply cannot do certain behaviors.

I'll never forget a friend of mine who trained his big rottie male with nothing but positive reinforcement. It was a very well trained dog, at least well trained in following the commands he had been taught. I happened to be in his house one day, when my friend accidentally poked the dog in the eye when reaching to put a collar on the dog. You should have seen the holes that dog put all the way through my friend's hand. Now imagine if that had been a child that poked the dog. I'll guarantee you that out of the many dozens of dogs I've owned, nothing would ever provoke one enough to bite me. They all know I'm the dominant one and that was taught to them without the use of any pain, or mistreatment of any kind. It would never occur to one that biting me was an option in any situation. This rottweiler had no such training. I'm not saying it couldn't have been trained with strictly positive reinforcement to not bite under any circumstance, just that it wouldn't have been the easiest, most effective way of doing it. Also, no one should get the idea that my dogs cower when I'm around. They are not mistreated in any way. Anyone watching us interact would come away thinking they were as happy as dogs could possibly be.

Thats right...
If your dog knows you are alpha..it wouldnt even think of biting you...
It would do everything it could to NOT bite you, as a a matter of fact....

 

[McSpin]

Quote:
I agree with that statement wholeheartedly! Every one of the dozens of dogs I've owned, were out for themselves. My hounds wanted to trail game more than anything else. My bird dogs wanted to find birds at every opportunity. My working dogs wanted to pull, tug, retrieve, guard or some other trait that was strongly bred into them. They all enjoyed day-long activity, but it was doing what they were bred to do, not want I hoped they would do.

 

[ninny]

Wow about the rottie. The biggest thing we work with puppys is to take anything done to them. Pulling ears, tails, eye pokes u name it. I can't believe someone won't do that. wow

 

[greathorse]

Yeah somehow we got back to "Cesar ruins dogs" people that have read every book and know every move but have no idea when and how to apply.

I would like to know where all those dead and ruined dogs are at the hands of Cesar Milan. I have watched his show and as I said before I am far from a student or disciple but sure dont get all the abuse he supposedly dishes out.

I agree with Jamie I have seen few dogs that are born to serve.

I have a dog now that is very dedicated to being outside, patrolling the fence line and enjoys hanging with ne(I think) but I think that has to do with the instinct to work.

Yep still clinging to the fact that there are a lot of ways to get things done, you just have to do them. And more than anything whatever it is that you do it must be applied with consistency

 

[Dar]

I would like to know where all those dead and ruined dogs are at the hands of Cesar Milan. I have watched his show and as I said before I am far from a student or disciple but sure dont get all the abuse he supposedly dishes out.



All I have to say is dont believe everything you see on TV...

Cesar may have helped many of dogs... and as you say he may have ruined many of dogs.. IMO the dog was ruined before Cesar was involved

Cesar does not know everything
Dr. Phil does not know everything
Dr. Oz does not know everything...

and we do know for sure happy endings make for great TV ratings.. that and sex...lol

 

[greathorse]

Pretty sure that is what I just said in the thread ahead of you

 

[synoviaus]

There are so many good ways to work with animals. I really like what Cesar says in his books about the energy. It makes sense. I have also read some other really good books on dog training. One of my favorites is Mother Knows Best by Carol Lea Benjamin. She helps you to understand training from the perspective of a mother dog/puppy relationship. It's great! It also helps if you find a local kennel club and sign up for classes. It's great for dogs to meet other dogs and people plus work in conditions where they are around lots of distractions. All things to make a dog easy to live with. The main thing when thinking of training your dog is to use your own judgment. I have never had to treat my animals cruelly to make them understand what I want them to do. Just be patient and consistent, and seize moments that they are doing something you want them to and praise them for it. Also make sure to use the same commands, and have family members use the same ones too. What you are basically doing is teaching a dog a foreign language- English. Anyway, best of luck with your dog whatever method you use. Amy