Cheating allowed and ENCOURAGED?!

[dainerra]

Quote:
My contention is that teachers should teach the assigned subject, and beyond a few minutes of "this is how to mark the bubble for the answer you have selected," instructions to skip questions you do not know and come back to them once you have completed the answers you do know, and whether it is appropriate to make the best guess or not, that is all that needs to be done on "teaching the test." If they have done a good job teaching the assigned material, then the students should do reasonably well.

the problem is that there is SOOO much riding on these test scores that ONLY material on the test is covered. There is no time for any "extras" like researching topics the kids are interested in. The teachers are given a list of specific questions/information that might be on the test. They have to divide the time to make sure that all the kids know that information and there just isn't time/money in the budget to vary from that.
Say the kids are really interested in Native American culture. Instead of being able to spend extra time and get the children working and expanding their critical knowledge skills by doing fun projects, learning to research in the library, doing reports on different aspects, the teacher doesn't have time. That "info" isn't going to be on the test, so it's plow on to the next topic to be covered.

 

[Royd]

Someone please explain the difference between teaching to the test or testing to the teaching. Epecially if the questions have not changed, and the teacher is not writing the test.
If the teacher was writing the test, they would not be including material which was never covered.

At the end of the day, 2X2=4.

 

[mom'sfolly]

Teaching to the test means that the if test requires narrative writing with length and descriptive phrases being rewarded, then that is the only style of writing that is taught, or at least emphasized. They will not be taught to compare and contrast, to write a descriptive story, or a persuasive essay. They will be taught to do a narrative with a lot of description and a long story. If the test requires that the kids finish two essays with a maximum length and a limited time; than that is the style of writing that is being taught.

In contrast, testing to the teaching means that children might be taught several different writing styles, and the test may include the option for writing essays for two out of the 5 writing styles that have been taught. The testing time would be determined by the teacher, and essay length.

Teaching to the test makes statewide testing possible. Everyone is taught how to do exactly the same thing, and it can be easily graded. It is much easier to get a standardized product. With the other approach, grading is more difficult because everyone is not using the same prompt and writing style. Teachers would have to do more of the grading, and it would be difficult to standardize the test.
'
Yes 2 +2 =4, but that isn't necessarily what is tested. You need to prove that you can group ones, tens and hundreds by doing little box drawings, and then add the ones, tens and hundreds. It isn't enough to be able to do the math, you must also be able to prove that you can do it by the approved method. Work must be shown, and you can't do it in your head. Reading proofs must be shown, you must be able to tell which paragraph you read the information in, being able to answer the question is not enough.

 

[dainerra]

what mom said. Also, if 2X2=4 isn't a question on the test, then it can be skipped over entirely. Sure, the teacher might want to teach a certain bit of material, but if it's not on the standardized test, then there isn't space for it in the curriculum.

Mom gave some good examples. To be a standardized test, everyone has to do everything the same way and always get the same answers. In literature, of course, everyone can come away with a slightly different viewpoint of the material. Instead of encouraging this line of thinking, the teacher has to instruct students to not analyze the story as it affects them, but how the test writers THINK the story should affect them. IE student reads "Old Man and the Sea" expert and comes away with idea B. However, the test writer came away with idea A. Therefore, the teacher must only teach idea A as the correct answer.

 

[chickieboy]

a lot of the no child left is being left out because obama said congress didn t funds a lot of it and he said states should do there own testing

 

[Royd]

mom'sfolly :

Teaching to the test means that the if test requires narrative writing with length and descriptive phrases being rewarded, then that is the only style of writing that is taught, or at least emphasized. They will not be taught to compare and contrast, to write a descriptive story, or a persuasive essay. They will be taught to do a narrative with a lot of description and a long story. If the test requires that the kids finish two essays with a maximum length and a limited time; than that is the style of writing that is being taught.

In contrast, testing to the teaching means that children might be taught several different writing styles, and the test may include the option for writing essays for two out of the 5 writing styles that have been taught. The testing time would be determined by the teacher, and essay length.

Teaching to the test makes statewide testing possible. Everyone is taught how to do exactly the same thing, and it can be easily graded. It is much easier to get a standardized product. With the other approach, grading is more difficult because everyone is not using the same prompt and writing style. Teachers would have to do more of the grading, and it would be difficult to standardize the test.
'
Yes 2 +2 =4, but that isn't necessarily what is tested. You need to prove that you can group ones, tens and hundreds by doing little box drawings, and then add the ones, tens and hundreds. It isn't enough to be able to do the math, you must also be able to prove that you can do it by the approved method. Work must be shown, and you can't do it in your head. Reading proofs must be shown, you must be able to tell which paragraph you read the information in, being able to answer the question is not enough.

I can see where this would be a problem in interpretive literature or writing styles, and should not be included in standardized tests, but math, history and science, from a textbook, is pretty cut and dried. Also, grammar, spelling and punctuation is pretty straight forward....... Where oh where should the comma or commas be in this sentence? Either fill in the blank or A,B,C,D.


In reality, it seems that teaching to a standardized system, would take a big burden off of the teacher, to be an inspirational teacher, each and every day. This is what we need to learn...Lots of repetition and pounding it into their heads. That really is the only way to learn a foriegn language.

Now that I think about it, I always remember teachers having a teacher's version of a textbook, and those students, who were wont to cheat, were always trying to get their hands on it, because they knew that's where she'd be pulling her questions from, and they could go home and study to the test.

So, what's all the complaining about, except that the teachers and schools are, now, being judged, by the supposed quality of the student, which they are turning out.

Maybe it should be brought back to a local level, and do away with the protective umbrella of the teachers' union.....If you can't perform and enough parents complain, you are gone.​

 

[babyrnlc]

Quote:
I don't know if that's 100% true. Like most things, I believe that depends on the child being homeschooled and the parent doing the schooling... Some parents just aren't cut out to be teachers, and some kids need a very structured environment. But if all schools were like this, I hear ya, sister!

I agree with this 100%. I graduated my first two out of homeschooling. I am homeschooling my 13 yr old and my 5 yr old, but three of my children are in a wonderful public school that has a great asperger program for my son and a great English language learner program for my daughter we adopted from Russia in 2010. And my other daughter just does better in school.

Next year may be completely different. I do what works best for each child. If this school won't let us keep transferring, I will bring them all home.

 

[babyrnlc]

Quote:
My contention is that teachers should teach the assigned subject, and beyond a few minutes of "this is how to mark the bubble for the answer you have selected," instructions to skip questions you do not know and come back to them once you have completed the answers you do know, and whether it is appropriate to make the best guess or not, that is all that needs to be done on "teaching the test." If they have done a good job teaching the assigned material, then the students should do reasonably well.

the problem is that there is SOOO much riding on these test scores that ONLY material on the test is covered. There is no time for any "extras" like researching topics the kids are interested in. The teachers are given a list of specific questions/information that might be on the test. They have to divide the time to make sure that all the kids know that information and there just isn't time/money in the budget to vary from that.
Say the kids are really interested in Native American culture. Instead of being able to spend extra time and get the children working and expanding their critical knowledge skills by doing fun projects, learning to research in the library, doing reports on different aspects, the teacher doesn't have time. That "info" isn't going to be on the test, so it's plow on to the next topic to be covered.

The school my children are in is completely different. They have an outdoor nature walk. They have class outside. Do research. Their mission and goals actually says to find out what the child is interested in and foster that. The teachers truly love these kids. Three of my children go there and almost all the teachers know all of them. Know what they like etc.

And it is a poor school. We don't even have to buy school supplies because so many are on the free lunch program they supply everything.

Yet even though they do not teach to the test, they have great scores! It is about teachers loving what they do. Loving the children and being creative! Like I said in my previous post. This school is amazing and if for some reason they would not let my children go there I would homeschool them.

 

[FarmerJamie]

Quote:
Royd, I share in the sense of confusion on why this is such a big issue. In theory, the teachers should teach and then periodically get "checked" on performance through a standardized test. In reality, at least for my three kids, the teachers can spend up to a week giving "practice tests" and instructing the kids on how to "take" the test (as someone mentioned earlier).

I'm not judging the teachers - heck, I see this behavior in my professional life. Our projects get audited periodically - the good Project Managers do what right and the audit is just an annoyance to get through. The average (or less) PM's scramble to "prepare for the audit".

I have several family members who are teachers, and fairly good ones at that. They too are annoyed about how what seemed a good idea was poorly implemented and administered at the local level. There are a lot of contributing factors to why this isn't working, I wouldn't be so ready to blame the NCLBA itself in a blanket fashion.

 

[dainerra]

sadly, though, the teachers aren't the ones who decide on the curriculum. Administrators in the district office sit down, with samples of the tests, and decide on text books and teaching methods. In some districts, the teachers have lots of input; in others, they might have none. Let's say this year the test for 3rd graders doesn't have a lot of questions about the use of commas. So, for 3rd graders, is going to be skimmed over at best. Next year, the 4th grade test might have a LOT of questions about commas. Instead of a quick review, the teacher is now going to have to teach all of the things that should have been learned the year before.

It is purely a money matter. Too many students who do poorly on the test and the district is going to lose funding.

It isn't the theory of NCLB that is the problem. The problem is that teachers aren't the ones making the decisions - it is politicians and administrators who have no experience in education!

Imagine that you are going to be evaluated at your job. But, instead of using your proven method of doing your job, the company brings in an outside person with little/no experience in your field and you have to do your job the way THEY tell you. You know that you have to do A,B,C and D to accomplish your task. The evaluator is only checking to make sure that B and D are done correctly. So, instead of doing your entire task, you have to spend several weeks doing only B and D. Sure other things are going to be neglected, but you'll pass your evaluation.

More like a Dilbert comic strip than an educational system.