Chicken necropsy (graphic images) - liver failure / internal bleeding - what is the cause?

[coach723]

I agree, the more space you can feasibly give them the better. What works for one group might not work for another, breed, temperament, personalities, roo's, etc. can all change the dymamic. I have 40 birds currently and my fenced space for them is a little over 100 x 100 ft. Luckily I have the space to do that. Since I have multiple roos this gives everyone space, there is no fighting, and the girls have plenty of room to get away. Some of my roo's will roost right next to each other at night.

 

[Perris]

Hello, I have circled what I believe is the heart (if that is in the right position of the heart?). I wasn't able to see the kidneys

I cannot see them either, but I never have been good at finding chicken kidneys.

You might find this useful for future reference

 

[newbiechickenmamma11]

10sqm is 103sqft, give or take. That's 10 birds, max, using the 10sq ft/bird rule. I think that's not enough sq ft/bd personally - but 10sq ft / bd is the thumb rule minimum. I'm getting ready to set up a new 30 x 40 (foot) fenced area to offer some protection to 25 birds. That's almost 50sq ft/bd and I feel badly about containing them - just not as badly as I feel about possums nabbing them as they sleep. So I'm giving them options.

The best rule is to give them as much room as you reasonably can.

The max I'd personally be comfortable keeping in there is 6-8 chickens. If I wasn't able to free range them safely every day, do you think 10sqm for their enclosed run is okay space for exercise for (now) 6 birds? I will of course try to free range them as much as possible but I can only do it while home due to predators.

 

[newbiechickenmamma11]

Hi all! I so appreciate your replies. I have set up an extra free range area for them too when I am working from home so they have more room, and I will keep an eye out on the rest of the chickens and hope or the best.

I might try weighing a couple of the bigger chickens to learn a bit more and keep track.

I do find it interesting that this chicken was on the bottom of the pecking order, so I didn’t think she ate a lot. Perhaps a bit of genetic predisposition played a part in her death?

Also two other questions:

• I feel a bit disappointed that the avian vet only gave me two phrases: ‘liver failure/issue/disease’ and ‘lots of internal bleeding’. I tried to ask the vet nurse whether she may have had fatty liver but the necropsy notes didn’t say more, and said it looks like something I couldn’t have prevented. Surely based on what we have concluded here (that it’s highly likely she had FLHS, the vet would have been able to also tell me that?

• If say I had another chicken I was concerned was at risk of FLHS, is this something the vet would be able to assess if I brought that chicken in to check? Eg through some sort of scan or something?

Thank you

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Hi all! I so appreciate your replies. I have set up an extra free range area for them too when I am working from home so they have more room, and I will keep an eye out on the rest of the chickens and hope or the best.

I might try weighing a couple of the bigger chickens to learn a bit more and keep track.

I do find it interesting that this chicken was on the bottom of the pecking order, so I didn’t think she ate a lot. Perhaps a bit of genetic predisposition played a part in her death?

Also two other questions:

• I feel a bit disappointed that the avian vet only gave me two phrases: ‘liver failure/issue/disease’ and ‘lots of internal bleeding’. I tried to ask the vet nurse whether she may have had fatty liver but the necropsy notes didn’t say more, and said it looks like something I couldn’t have prevented. Surely based on what we have concluded here (that it’s highly likely she had FLHS, the vet would have been able to also tell me that?

• If say I had another chicken I was concerned was at risk of FLHS, is this something the vet would be able to assess if I brought that chicken in to check? Eg through some sort of scan or something?

Thank you

I'm going to try and remember to come back to this and provide some depth to my answers, but woke up late, and am about an hour behind where I should be at this moment.

The (very) short answer is the FLHS is a syndrome, a collection of symptoms, with a complicated (and somewhat disputed) set of causes. There is no simple test for it, gender, and genetics both play a factor, and feed is often the most significant component (though not just fat/carb content) in the pathology.

Your avian vet got you in the right area - liver failure w/ internal bleeding. They just needed to make a few additional observations to slap a descriptive name on it - a name which tells you little more than that a certain collection of symptoms were noted.

and no, there is no simple test for it - though if one bird has died from it, its a reasonable assumption that others birds, raised under the same conditions, likely have similar symptoms. Taking action to address them is also reasonable.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

OK, slightly longer post. At various times, I've done commercial drafting, dug footers, wired rebar, performed wind load and rain run off calculations, done basic carpentry and framing, run household electrical (110, 220) from the service drop to the outlets, plumbing and waste water (complete systems), mortared block, and done roofing (shingle and metal). Oh, and am currently GC on a home build.

Your Avian vet is just like me looking at a house - probably knows enough to do a serviceable, professional job for a LOT of avian species. But its doubtful they have any deep experience in any, unless that species is a personal hobby of theirs. And that avian knowledge is itself a specialization, on top of a lot of general veterinary skill.

My brother, on the other hand does framing to finish carpentry - with enough skill that he's doing cabinetry veneers on customer order personal jets. Compared to him, my skill is paltry. Specialization and experience matters. When your vet sends for labs, its like me calling my brother.

Even here, on BYC where we have a lot of knowledgeable, experienced posters focused specifically on chickens, very few of us get up inside our chickens and poke around much. ...and fewer still have much experience with chicken illnesses that can make much of photo records. I have experienced almost no injury or illness in my flock - when I need advice, I go to BYC's experts on that forum. I'm usually called on regarding nutrition. I just happen to be one of those people that does frequently look inside his birds, and there is a lot of overlap between FLHS and chicken nutrition.

As I said above, its a syndrome. Is the liver soft, often buttery in color and friable (crumbly)? Check. Is there evidence of hemorrhage (internal bleeding)? Check. Is there other evidence of excessive fat in the abdominal cavity? Check. Conclusion: Probably somewhere on the FLHS spectrum.

Causes? There is a genetic predisposition - breeds more likely to go broody, and breeds known for being docile seem slightly more susceptible. I assume "Frankenchickens" (Cornish X) are highly susceptible, but they aren't generally allowed to live long enough for symptoms to develop, and breeder flocks are heavily feed restricted. Gender? Absolutely. Hens are far more likely to develop the condition then Roos. When you think about the mechanics, it makes perfect sense. Hens need to build up internal fat reserves in order to sit a nest for 21 days +/-, Roos don't. Docile birds are less active, and will tend to deposit more fat as result of dietary excess, while their internal organs tend to be less robust.

MOST of the cases we see can be clearly traced to feed as the key factor. Too much fat and carbs for the level of daily activity. Birds over eating low nutrition, high energy feeds in an effort to meet other nutritional needs (like Protein) force their livers to work extra hard to process all those excess calories, leading to formations of fatty deposits and eventual liver failure. and unfortunately, low nutrition, high energy "make at home" feeds is something we see a lot of on the forums. BUT, there are also some diseases which can cause the liver to start accumulating fat, the source of which can sometimes be undesired biologicals they ingested in their feed.

and sometimes, no cause can be identified with any confidence at all.

So don't beat your vet up over it. They did OK.

as to the rest, as I said prior, if you have a flock of hens (more prone) and their activity is limited (don't kick yourself, most owners can't offer their birds as much space as they would like, typically due to zoning and/or limited property ownership), and one has already passed due to what looks like FLHS, given the strong influence of diet in the pathology, restricting high calorie/high fat treats ("scratch", cracked corn, mealworms, sunflower seeds, etc) you are adding to a nutritionally complete feed is a very reasonable step you can take towards the future health of the rest of your flock.

Hope that helps some. and don't kick yourself for not knowing - your Vet didn't, either.

 

[newbiechickenmamma11]

Hello, again, thank you for the additional information. I really appreciate it. So tonight I found a very helpful piece to the puzzle I wanted to share. (I am only a backyard keeper but I'm really passionate about learning and trying to do the best for my pets).

I was trying to research whether Marans as a breed was more genetically predisposed to fatty liver/FLHS when I found a post from the breeder who shared that one year ago, 4 of their marans chickens died from fatty liver disease (the state government did a necropsy). My hen came from an egg laid by their marans pens.

I guess that suggests that my hen may have been genetically predisposed to FLHS? If a breeder was to find out multiple of their chickens had died from FLHS, could that be something they choose to strategically breed out of their lines?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Hello, again, thank you for the additional information. I really appreciate it. So tonight I found a very helpful piece to the puzzle I wanted to share. (I am only a backyard keeper but I'm really passionate about learning and trying to do the best for my pets).

I was trying to research whether Marans as a breed was more genetically predisposed to fatty liver/FLHS when I found a post from the breeder who shared that one year ago, 4 of their marans chickens died from fatty liver disease (the state government did a necropsy). My hen came from an egg laid by their marans pens.

I guess that suggests that my hen may have been genetically predisposed to FLHS? If a breeder was to find out multiple of their chickens had died from FLHS, could that be something they choose to strategically breed out of their lines?

I have no Marans experience, and am unaware of any relationship between Marans and FLHS. Nor could I find any in a quick keyword search. As commented above, its usually (largely) a feed thing - at least as possible that your breeder kept his marans caged and overfed.

But it is possible.

Breeding out a predisposition runs the risk of breeding out traits (like Broodiness, Docility) that have value to some.

For all my poultry nutritional readings, there is almost no breed-specific research - and what there is is focused either on maximizing yield from Frankenchickens, or minimizing inputs for prime production layers during their peal productive months. Anything beyond that is educated conjecture that needs to be painted w/ very broad brush.