Chicken owner killed lab trying to attack him and his flock

[Howard E]

Looks like the OP is long gone.

While it may be necessary to shoot any animal that is killing livestock, that should not be our go to answer when seeing a dog we don't recognize. I would call to it, see if it comes over. It may be someone's pet, and they would be just as grateful as I would be if it were my lost dog to have their dog back.

I raise chickens knowing they are at the very bottom of the food chain. They will be hunted by bears, coyotes, dogs, bobcats, raccoons and more at a moments notice. I can't be out there protecting them with my guns 24/7, so I built the best defense I know how. I set up electric net fencing around my 1/4 acre chicken yard. I built a chicken pen that has both 2"x4" field fencing all around and 1/2 hardware wire from top to bottom. My coop has an outer wall of 5/8" plywood and inner walls of 1/4" plywood. I have my own dogs that I make sure mark the yard all around the chicken yard. I went from 1-2 losses a month to 0 losses in 3 years. The predators are all there still, I get pics of them on my game cameras each week. But they haven't figured out how to get past all the defense layers I have set up. At some point, they probably will get past my defenses, and if and when that happens, I'll figure out another layer of defense.

I have shot animals, mostly rabid animals where shooting them was the merciful thing to do - very pitiful sight if you have seen them staggering around. But it is not fun. I feel bad to have to take a life. I try and live by the golden rule. If it were my dog that got loose, I would hope that someone who finds him would not shoot him simply because he is on their property.

By now, I suspect the OP rues the day he did what he did. How many of us would want to be in his shoes right now, facing the scorn of the community and mounting legal bills? How much better would things be for him now if he had adopted and followed the advice and attitude outlined above? Miles ahead of where he is now. Too late for him to go back in time, but not too late for others who have not yet come to that fateful moment. So how to avoid being put in that situation?

My solution to things is virtually identical to what Thomas outlines above. I also have all manner of predators lurking around after dark and have seen a whole lot of dogs in the yard during the day. But no issues and I really don't even worry about it. My solution is a bomb proof coop at ground zero that protects the birds from the elements and things that go bump in the night and a viciously hot electric fence that surrounds their yard area when they are out during the day. Is that all it takes? Don't know, but I still have all the birds I raised from chicks. It has worked flawless so far.

Electric fences are the ultimate solution to wandering dogs and most other land based predators. No shots fired, so no permanent harm done (I almost feel sorry for anything that touches that fence), so no complaints from owners if their god (sorry dog) does get zapped. Most likely they will never know about it anyway, but if they object, all they have to do is keep their dog away from it. A fence like that gives peace of mind. Just a silent sentinel that is always on.....24/7. To get their training, all animals have to touch it once. Very few will be back to touch it twice.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Except.... if you don't have 2 hot wires at the top, your birds can still easily make it over....

People also don't realize what instincts some animals come with. For example... the weenie mix. Weenies are hunting dogs, long and short to get in the wholes after the prey.

And whoever's husband shot the gun into the air.... please don't forget the bullet still comes down somewhere!

All my dogs ARE great family dogs and would never hurt any of us. But strangers is a whole other story!!

Yes, my SIL said their insurance would drop us for our dog killing a cat on it's own property and consider it to be a dangerous animal.

And the same way the groomer described animals acting different when the owners aren't around actually happens with children to, so I'm not surprised.


Assessing a threat can be difficult depending on your previous experience. One time my dog got off leash in broad day light and rushed down the street where he met a lady and tried to sniff her. Though I knew it wasn't a threat... she was crying and terrified. Even though he was just happy, she had know way to know that.

Honestly if it was dark, which by the way is from about 5 pm until 7 am so who knows what the story means by "middle of the night", I'm not sure without barking that I could discern a dog from a coyote or other predator.

In our area... it is illegal to detain a dog that doesn't belong to you. And good luck getting animal control or police to your place. When my house was burglarized (our previous location) in broad daylight while I was gone to the dog park... took the police 6 hours to show up even though I had guns stolen (happened 1 day before my gun safe was delivered)! One thing I can promise you is if you feel threatened, it might be too late by the time they show up. My house was ransacked and for all I know someone could have still been there! When they caught the guys they let them off with lesser charges for some BS roll over and rat someone else out.

Gotta love our "justice" system...

I want to say to everyone here at BYC.... the OP came here looking for support on a very difficult situation. And while many are in disagreement with his actions.... instead of ganging up against him, y'all rallied around him and gave him helpful hints for the future and were very supportive in a true BYC community manner! Thank you guys for making it feel like a safe place to come if I am troubled by something!

I wonder how often OP's log out and look like a guest viewing the thread.... in order to get the info without having to respond hundreds of times?

 

[Howard E]

Except.... if you don't have 2 hot wires at the top, your birds can still easily make it over....

I started out with only two wires, and we have a BYC celebrity who posts now and then who says he only relies on one wire. He share his experience and advice here:

http://www.plamondon.com/wp/faq-simple-electric-fences-chickens/

The fence I rely on has 4 wires, but the top one is only 20 inches or so high. No gates......I just step over it.

The chickens seemed like they were the last to learn.......the animals who tested it the most........but after each of them got zapped a few times, they gave up and don't try it. It took about two weeks for them to all learn. None have been out in almost 6 months.

When I had one and two wires, they got zapped when the stepped on it. They didn't go under it, or over it or through it, they walked up to it and stepped on it. Most then got zapped and launched about 5 feet straight up and would still be squawking and cackling 30 seconds later. Of those that did get out, if they were pushed, they would lift up and fly or hop over it, but that was when they were on the outside and really wanted back in. Now they seldom go near it. It also helps that they have a lot of yard room to roam around inside the fence, as well as food and cover and none of that is anywhere near the fence. They don't lurk near the edge so likewise are not hanging out near the fence where they might attract the notice of predators (like stray dogs).

On of the more interesting observations about that fence is it even keeps deer out. They could easily jump over it, but don't. They did when it was off......knocking it off the posts a lot of times, suggesting to me they could not see the light wire in the dark. So when I turned it back on, they must of walked into it and got zapped. They have no clue what an electric fence is or what bit em, they only know if they go near that garden, they get zapped. So they don't come around either.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I use 48” tall electric netting. My chickens would have no problem flying over it if they wanted to. I’ve seen them do it a couple of times. Two different times a hen got out and as I was herding her back toward a gate she just flew over the netting to get back in. They easily cleared it by a foot.

Mine hardly ever get out now if I don’t leave a gate open. It used to happen a fair amount, practically always cockerels. They’d get in their fights, the loser would be trapped against the fence and go vertical to escape. Sometimes they land on the wrong side of the netting. I found if I sort of flatten the corners instead of building 90 degree or sharper corners the number of escapees drops dramatically. Another lesson was instead of building a long fairly narrow corridor to get to a larger area further away I build it pretty square they don’t fly out. Apparently if I have sharp corners or narrow corridors the chance of a cockerel getting trapped against the netting goes way up. Configuration makes a big difference whether mine get out or not.

My chicks can just walk through the netting until they are maybe 7 to 8 weeks old and get too big to squeeze through. Their feathers insulate them. But if a chicken touches a hot section with their comb or wattles while grounded they get a good shock. Combs and wattles are not insulated. Not sure about the beaks but they probably aren’t insulated either.

Coyotes and a lot of dogs could jump over my 48” high netting if they wanted to. They don’t. It seems to be in their nature to check it out first. What does a canine use to check out something, their nose or tongue. I don’t know if their fur insulates them or not, but their nose and tongue are not insulated.

I don’t use strands of hot wire so I don’t have any experience in setting them up. I’m sure there are different configurations that will work. I’ve seen pasture fences set up to keep horses and cattle in. Dogs regularly go straight through them. Configuration is important.

 

[ChickenGuppy]

I agree if a dog attacks you it's going to get shot.

 

[thomasboyle]

I use 48'' tall netting and my Leghorns love flying out, but I look at it as a safe place from predators, but if they gotta check out the other side of the fence, who am I to stop them from being a chicken, and they know it is a safe place to go back to. Half the time they fly out and thirty minutes later they are pacing the fence wanting back in.

I trust my dogs with my kids and chickens, but when I got the fence, poor Maggie had to check it out and she rubbed her fur against it and didn't get shocked,but then she sniffed, and the poor girl has not come within ten feet of that fence, and now she is scared of the chickens. Lol

I had a friend however, who doesn't breed her hens, but loves them very much and collects rare breeds just for the fun of it (Money is not a big issue in her family). One day she came home to find over two thirds of her flock wiped out. Dogs had hurdled over the fence and had a bloodbath with her babies. Some were still alive, but tangled in the fence being repeatedly shocked. So electric fencing is not a solve all, but it has helped me.

~Abby

Abby, you need to feed your chickens more! Once mine got fat, they could no longer fly over the fence!

My dogs did the same thing, investigated the fence and got zapped on the nose. Only took one time and now they won't come near the fence.

You are correct that fences will not stop all attacks. Coyotes, foxes and bobcats can easily jump over a 4' fence. The key to the effectiveness of the fence is having them get shocked while investigating the fence for the first time. Then they won't come near it to try and jump it. I saw a Youtube video of a bobcat taking ducks from a small pond protected by electric net fence. He took 2 or 3 in repeated trips. You can bait the fence by hanging bacon or peanut butter just on the inside of the fence, and when the animal tries to get the food, they get zapped.

 

[Howard E]

One of the advantages of wire fences over the netting is if a threatened bird is outside the wire and needs to get back in, they can. They just punch through it. Likely as not, the varmint won't.

A hot wire fence is NOT a physical barrier. It is a psychological one. They need to touch it once and once is generally enough. None of them have any clue what an electric fence is, but they understand violent pain and will avoid it at all costs. A hot electric fence dishes out violent pain. Wire fences need to be low to the ground to keep furry predators like possums, coons, skunks, cats and dogs from sneaking under them. Remember, they gotta touch it. Dogs and canine predators tend to lead with their nose close to the ground. A high wire fence, would not even be noticed by them. So fences for cattle, horses, etc. are no threat to them and no impedance to their progress.

What Thomas suggests is a good way to train them. I'd suggest a piece of raw or cooked chicken skin draped over the wire to help them find it, although I never have. Most of my varmints seem to find it on their own.

 

[centrarchid]

Hotwire is semipermeable barrier. Chickens can pass but most ground predators cannot. Psychological part can involve more than the wire itself being a deterrent. I employ vegetation transition zones where vegetation zone is closely mowed two mower blade decks on either side of the fence. Transition on outside gives predator heads up it is entering zone where it needs to be looking about. Higher vegetation on inside gives chicken a logical cover to retreat to that takes it away from predator on other side of fence. Additionally, the well mowed runways are heavily used by my dogs to more rapid locate threat as well concentrate scent marking. It is a redundant labeling system that is easy to read.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

That hot wire fence makes sense, really..... Will be considering it. It has been one of things challenging me for a while.

Man I could see the revolution of fencing now. And spending less $ on the infinite number of gates I seem to need!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Howard E]

One of the advantages of wire fences over the netting is if a threatened bird is outside the wire and needs to get back in, they can. They just punch through it. Likely as not, the varmint won't.

A hot wire fence is NOT a physical barrier. It is a psychological one. They need to touch it once and once is generally enough. None of them have any clue what an electric fence is, but they understand violent pain and will avoid it at all costs. A hot electric fence dishes out violent pain. Wire fences need to be low to the ground to keep furry predators like possums, coons, skunks, cats and dogs from sneaking under them. Remember, they gotta touch it. Dogs and canine predators tend to lead with their nose close to the ground. A high wire fence, would not even be noticed by them. So fences for cattle, horses, etc. are no threat to them and no impedance to their progress.

What Thomas suggests is a good way to train them. I'd suggest a piece of raw or cooked chicken skin draped over the wire to help them find it, although I never have. Most of my varmints seem to find it on their own.

Varmint update: We had about 2 inches or so of light powder snow about 2 days ago, plus a light dusting last night. Went out to feed and do some chores this morning and noticed coyote tracks INSIDE the wire. Judging from the detail of the track, probably not more than a few hours old. Perhaps came and went in the early morning darkness? So what gives?

Tracks revealed the varmint approached over an open hayfield from the west, coming straight in. Tracks stopped at the hot wire fence....it moved down the fence line about 10 feet or so, then went UNDER the fence. There was some scuffling, suggesting it crawled out from under the fence faster than it went in. Tracks circulated around within the garden area sniffing at places where the birds hang out and poop during the day, and approached the hot fence three times at various places.....what seemed like an animal looking for a way out.....but always turned back from it. Eventually went back to where they came in and again......a lot of scuffling took place, eventually jumping over it. It left in the direction from whence it came. It never did approach the coop populated with birds and that was only 50 feet or so away. In a 48 hour span, there have been NO animal tracks of any kind surrounding the coop with live birds in it. This one coyote was the only animal that has been inside the wire during the past 48 hours. Coyote tracks all around the place elsewhere.

So does this mean it doesn't work? Hard to tell. Likely as not, it got zapped as it was crawling under the first time.....was reluctant to test it 2 or 3 more times......and eventually worked up the nerve to jump over it to leave as it was trapped inside and wanted out. If that was the first encounter, perhaps this one was a rookie that just got it's lesson. Will it come back? I'll be watching for more tracks in the snow. Speaking of snow, a wet snow is probably a good conductor. Not sure about dry, fluffy powder. We had the latter, so it may not have gotten the degree of zap it normally would.

I like to check on things after a fresh snowfall. You can find out a whole lot about what goes on after dark.