⠀ Chickens need more protein?

[Purina]

This is not a problem that I have, but it's both a question and observation from other people's protein problems.

If chickens on layer feed need more protein, shouldn't people look for a layer feed with more protein? Why haven't businesses started making layer feed with more protein? To me, it sounds like a plot to get you to buy their supplements.

What are your thoughts on this?

Great question, josie705!

Calcium is a powerhouse ingredient in layer feed. It promotes strong bones and egg shells. Therefore, the amount of calcium in a layer feed will need to be higher than that of non-layers. More importantly, hens need a slow-release calcium source. If the calcium isn’t provided in the layer feed, hens may pull the nutrient from their bones to create eggshells.

Protein is also important. Protein contains building blocks, or amino acids, that keep muscles and internal plumbing running smoothly, as well as maintaining beautiful feathers. DL-methionine is one of those building blocks that is essential for the hen to stay healthy and continue to lay eggs.

A 16% complete layer diet, like Purina Layena is ideal for laying hens and should make up at least 90% of the total diet. If you have a mixed flock or your birds are molting, consider feeding a diet higher in protein, such as Purina Flock Raiser, which contains 20% protein. You can even consider switching them back to a complete non-medicated starter diet, like Purina Start & Grow, which contains 18% protein.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I love that @Ridgerunner noted several differences that many people do not consider and that is body type! Always detailed posts are a joy to see.

I feed a 20% protein flock raiser and OS on the side for my mixed age and gender flock.

The DL methionine is another good point. As the protein goes up so does this. But some companies actually have it as an additive so I don't know it raises their protein level as well or not and the said effect.

Here is link regarding feed levels for different body types and ages....

http://ucanr.edu/sites/poultry/files/186894.pdf

Wow 12%

Good job paying attention and doing better than that for your birds!

 

[junebuggena]

Great question, josie705!

Calcium is a powerhouse ingredient in layer feed. It promotes strong bones and egg shells. Therefore, the amount of calcium in a layer feed will need to be higher than that of non-layers. More importantly, hens need a slow-release calcium source. If the calcium isn’t provided in the layer feed, hens may pull the nutrient from their bones to create eggshells.

Protein is also important. Protein contains building blocks, or amino acids, that keep muscles and internal plumbing running smoothly, as well as maintaining beautiful feathers. DL-methionine is one of those building blocks that is essential for the hen to stay healthy and continue to lay eggs.

A 16% complete layer diet, like Purina Layena is ideal for laying hens and should make up at least 90% of the total diet. If you have a mixed flock or your birds are molting, consider feeding a diet higher in protein, such as Purina Flock Raiser, which contains 18% protein. You can even consider switching them back to a complete non-medicated starter diet, like Purina Start & Grow, which contains 20% protein.

Actually, Flock Raiser is 20% protein and Start & Grow is 18%.

 

[speckledhen]

I feed a 22% layer feed by Tucker Milling called Super Lay. And my "scratch" that is tossed out sparingly in the a.m. or used in an old jar to shake and call them home from free ranging is a 13-grain cock conditioner which has 16% protein by itself, plus its own grit. I do feel that young breeder birds, especially the heritage breeds, tend to need more protein than they are usually fed. If chickens get any scratch at all, or the usual type which is about 8% protein, that effectively lowers the overall protein consumption. So, if you feed the usual 16% layer, plus the 8% scratch every day, they are not getting a full 16% protein, and the more scratch they eat, the lower it goes.


I also appreciate that Tucker Milling has not removed animal protein from their feeds. There's no such thing as a vegetarian chicken. Mine have done well on their feeds for years.


***that said, I do free range my groups on a rotating basis; they are not penned 24/7 so get natural forage as well.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Back when I used a layer feed Agway sold an 18% layer with marigold added.

A couple percent of protein here or there is nothing to bother about but when you think of 16% being a minimum and what commercial operations use with high feed to egg conversion hybrid birds it doesn't take much thought to realize we backyarders with dual purpose larger birds might do well with more protein. Not to mention we supplement low protein treats that commercial operations do not.

With chicks to layers every year mixed age flocks would do well with 20%. That's what I use, everyone on 20% non medicated starter crumbles when chicks are around and everyone on 20% turkey finisher pellets when youngest birds are large enough. Oyster shell tossed on side for layers. Those with heavy handed with treats could go much more.

 

[GC-Raptor]

Back when I used a layer feed Agway sold an 18% layer with marigold added.

A couple percent of protein here or there is nothing to bother about but when you think of 16% being a minimum and what commercial operations use with high feed to egg conversion hybrid birds it doesn't take much thought to realize we backyarders with dual purpose larger birds might do well with more protein. Not to mention we supplement low protein treats that commercial operations do not.

With chicks to layers every year mixed age flocks would do well with 20%. That's what I use, everyone on 20% non medicated starter crumbles when chicks are around and everyone on 20% turkey finisher pellets when youngest birds are large enough. Oyster shell tossed on side for layers. Those with heavy handed with treats could go much more. 

Look for Nutrena Naturewise hearty hen. They made it for Agway from what I've read. 18% protein with marigold extract and Omega 3. GC

 

[donut314]

I find this thread most interesting. I went to a pet swap last weekend and met a guy looking for 28% protein feed for his chicken. I was shocked and thought chicken eats a lower protein diet. I don't have chickens of my own so I was only going off of my limited knowledge of pigeons, quails and pheasants. I expressed my thoughts to him and he explained to me that show birds needs high protein.

I thought too much protein can damage their liver?

 

[Purina]

I find this thread most interesting. I went to a pet swap last weekend and met a guy looking for 28% protein feed for his chicken. I was shocked and thought chicken eats a lower protein diet. I don't have chickens of my own so I was only going off of my limited knowledge of pigeons, quails and pheasants. I expressed my thoughts to him and he explained to me that show birds needs high protein.

I thought too much protein can damage their liver?

Hi donut314,

Yes, you are correct, too much of any nutrient, including protein, can cause a nutritional imbalance and resulting health conditions can ensue. Birds that are growing or going through molt can be fed a feed with higher protein (18-20%). In any case, we recommend feeding a balanced and complete diet to your birds. Complete feeds have been formulated to ensure that your flock’s diet contains all of the essential nutrients needed, in the correct amounts and ratios, for optimum bird health and performance.

To read more about the nutrients in complete layer feeds, check out this article.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I find this thread most interesting. I went to a pet swap last weekend and met a guy looking for 28% protein feed for his chicken. I was shocked and thought chicken eats a lower protein diet. I don't have chickens of my own so I was only going off of my limited knowledge of pigeons, quails and pheasants. I expressed my thoughts to him and he explained to me that show birds needs high protein.

I thought too much protein can damage their liver?

It's true too much protein can damage you kidneys, not sure about liver.

But it can cause gout as well as kidney failure.

Too much... being a figurative term. Because what's too much for one may be just right for another and vice versa.

I used game bird feed at 28% protein with my first set of chicks because the feed store swore by it. Come to find out feed store employees are often limited in their knowledge and only repeating what they've heard. I always suggest a second opinion if that is where the information came from. And to be honest even people who I trust and respect, I think you should get a second opinion. Sometimes people just don't have all the information.

So also, if someones birds die and they don't have a necropsy done... they might not know there was organ failure or what was the cause of death and they can only assume. The organ failure and kidney issue can also be cause by too much calcium (another type of gout) as in layer feed fed to non layers like roosters, chicks, or molting ladies. Some people will feed this way and never see an issue. It may be an issue only if the individual bird is somehow predisposed to a problem.

My guess as to why he claims show birds need more protein is because feathers are 90% protein... so you will likely get glossier and better quality feathers from the higher protein. Also, heavier breeds can benefit more from higher protein than the light breeds like leghorn or RIR. They have smaller body masses to maintain as well as usually less feathers. I decided that although I like more protein than layer... that game bird might be too high. So I go with flock raiser which is 20% protein and OS on the side.

Also, I read studies showing that the problems in broiler type birds were decreased by decreasing the amount of protein if their starter feed to slow their growth rate. And when I had a large breed dog the vet told me to get a feed to slow the growth to prevent later problems in the joints and bones. I though the vet was crazy. But the more I learn, the pieces seem to fit.

One reason I go with the flock raiser is I have chicks, pullets, cockerels, molting hens, breeding (hatching) hens all the time. It is a happy medium for me. Not that I think it's perfect for all in my flock (20% is less than 22% starter), but the best choice I have available with my current information.

Though I wish I could agree with that Purina post, and I mostly do... they don't account for your individual practices. Like whether you free range or give treats. And as far as I am concerned the 16% in layer is the bare minimum needed to maintain a birds body and laying... not hatching the healthiest and most viable chicks. And boys need more protein to develop and maintain their muscle than girls do. Plus another poster had to correct them about their own products just above...

I am no expert... but I don't have a product to sell either. I have 50+ birds and 6 years raising them. Only sharing my personal experience with you. I will agree that balance is key, even if I don't agree with what that balance may or may not be. We all have to do what seems right to us. And we all have different purposes for our flocks. And those may change over time. My understanding and preference has changed many times. I used to feed exclusively layer... but will never feed layer again. Not because it's bad but because it isn't right for my flocks needs, IMO.

I do use Purina products because that is what's readily available (even though they are sold under different brand names). To me name has no bearing and what's important are the nutrients but also I prefer to go with which ingredients sound the best... and quit using Purina flock raiser because they started adding DE to it and I don't want to breath it. Ever see the big cloud when you pour a bag of feed? Breathing dust is one thing DE is a whole other, The other product by them under a different name has the same first half of ingredients with almost identical nutrient values but no DE and $1 cheaper for a slightly less pretty bag. My point being, even if you find a product you like beware they change the formulation sometimes without saying anything. And I don't like vagueness. I rather see it say wheat or corn but if it says grain byproducts... sorry not my cup of tea.

And yes, the higher protein products always cost more. Because corn, and oyster shell are cheaper to produce than protein.

You are correct, most chickens get between 16% and 22% depending on life stages. That guy you saw had special needs and goes with what seems to work for them. Would be curious to know their age of mortality as well as other things like chick vitality and hatch-ability as well as if they ever do necropsy and see how the organs were holding up type thing.

Anyways, even if his needs were different ... god looking out for your fellow poultry keepers!

There maybe people who are just doing what the feed store told them. So don't hold back your info next time either... you just might save a life!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Great question, josie705!

Calcium is a powerhouse ingredient in layer feed. It promotes strong bones and egg shells. Therefore, the amount of calcium in a layer feed will need to be higher than that of non-layers. More importantly, hens need a slow-release calcium source. If the calcium isn’t provided in the layer feed, hens may pull the nutrient from their bones to create eggshells.

Protein is also important. Protein contains building blocks, or amino acids, that keep muscles and internal plumbing running smoothly, as well as maintaining beautiful feathers. DL-methionine is one of those building blocks that is essential for the hen to stay healthy and continue to lay eggs.

A 16% complete layer diet, like Purina Layena is ideal for laying hens and should make up at least 90% of the total diet. If you have a mixed flock or your birds are molting, consider feeding a diet higher in protein, such as Purina Flock Raiser, which contains 20% protein. You can even consider switching them back to a complete non-medicated starter diet, like Purina Start & Grow, which contains 18% protein.

Good information but every time an egg is laid, the hens do pull calcium from the medullary bone. That calcium is replaced during the day from the diet, whether that be from the feed or large particle oyster shell.

It's true too much protein can damage you kidneys, not sure about liver.

But it can cause gout as well as kidney failure.

Too much... being a figurative term. Because what's too much for one may be just right for another and vice versa.

I used game bird feed at 28% protein with my first set of chicks because the feed store swore by it. Come to find out feed store employees are often limited in their knowledge and only repeating what they've heard. I always suggest a second opinion if that is where the information came from. And to be honest even people who I trust and respect, I think you should get a second opinion. Sometimes people just don't have all the information.

So also, if someones birds die and they don't have a necropsy done... they might not know there was organ failure or what was the cause of death and they can only assume. The organ failure and kidney issue can also be cause by too much calcium (another type of gout) as in layer feed fed to non layers like roosters, chicks, or molting ladies. Some people will feed this way and never see an issue. It may be an issue only if the individual bird is somehow predisposed to a problem.

My guess as to why he claims show birds need more protein is because feathers are 90% protein... so you will likely get glossier and better quality feathers from the higher protein. Also, heavier breeds can benefit more from higher protein than the light breeds like leghorn or RIR. They have smaller body masses to maintain as well as usually less feathers. I decided that although I like more protein than layer... that game bird might be too high. So I go with flock raiser which is 20% protein and OS on the side.

Also, I read studies showing that the problems in broiler type birds were decreased by decreasing the amount of protein if their starter feed to slow their growth rate. And when I had a large breed dog the vet told me to get a feed to slow the growth to prevent later problems in the joints and bones. I though the vet was crazy. But the more I learn, the pieces seem to fit.

One reason I go with the flock raiser is I have chicks, pullets, cockerels, molting hens, breeding (hatching) hens all the time. It is a happy medium for me. Not that I think it's perfect for all in my flock (20% is less than 22% starter), but the best choice I have available with my current information.

Though I wish I could agree with that Purina post, and I mostly do... they don't account for your individual practices. Like whether you free range or give treats. And as far as I am concerned the 16% in layer is the bare minimum needed to maintain a birds body and laying... not hatching the healthiest and most viable chicks. And boys need more protein to develop and maintain their muscle than girls do. Plus another poster had to correct them about their own products just above...

I am no expert... but I don't have a product to sell either. I have 50+ birds and 6 years raising them. Only sharing my personal experience with you. I will agree that balance is key, even if I don't agree with what that balance may or may not be. We all have to do what seems right to us. And we all have different purposes for our flocks. And those may change over time. My understanding and preference has changed many times. I used to feed exclusively layer... but will never feed layer again. Not because it's bad but because it isn't right for my flocks needs, IMO.

I do use Purina products because that is what's readily available (even though they are sold under different brand names). To me name has no bearing and what's important are the nutrients but also I prefer to go with which ingredients sound the best... and quit using Purina flock raiser because they started adding DE to it and I don't want to breath it. Ever see the big cloud when you pour a bag of feed? Breathing dust is one thing DE is a whole other, The other product by them under a different name has the same first half of ingredients with almost identical nutrient values but no DE and $1 cheaper for a slightly less pretty bag. My point being, even if you find a product you like beware they change the formulation sometimes without saying anything. And I don't like vagueness. I rather see it say wheat or corn but if it says grain byproducts... sorry not my cup of tea.

And yes, the higher protein products always cost more. Because corn, and oyster shell are cheaper to produce than protein.

You are correct, most chickens get between 16% and 22% depending on life stages. That guy you saw had special needs and goes with what seems to work for them. Would be curious to know their age of mortality as well as other things like chick vitality and hatch-ability as well as if they ever do necropsy and see how the organs were holding up type thing.

Anyways, even if his needs were different ... god looking out for your fellow poultry keepers!

There maybe people who are just doing what the feed store told them. So don't hold back your info next time either... you just might save a life!

Gout, whether articular (excess protein) or visceral (excess calcium {and other causes}) both are from kidney damage. Excess protein does need to be processed by the liver and excreted by the kidneys.