Coccidia is killing my flock one by one- tried everything

Here's what I would do, beginning right now, with as detailed arguments as to why ...

1. Replace their water with an astringent solution. Mix four teaspoons of (any) Apple Cider Vinegar to each gallon of water offered to all your birds (but NOT in galvanized metal containers).

Before anybody argues that it doesn't kill coccidia, or that it must have those trace amounts of enzyme folk call 'the mother' in it? I don't care, 'cause it's the acidity and the tannins that I'm lookin' for, primarily to strip the mucus from their systems, so as to improve nutrient/vitamin uptake, which also helps to boost their immune systems and allows them to better absorb any medication(s) given.

2. Give *something* right now, in absence of evidence to the contrary, rather than waiting for what you'd rather use. Preferably something that you haven't tried, based upon the Active Ingredient rather than Brand (i.e. if you are waiting for Corid, then you are waiting for just a specific brand-name of Amprolium, which you can pick up in multiple forms, and at multiple locations close by).

Based upon your other posts, now that I've been afforded the opportunity to read them, they're stuffed full of parasites ... that's why they're sick, and why their immune systems are failing ... for example, that's where all the Vitamin B1 they need is goin' to, and Corid (Amprolium) kills oocytes by blocking the uptake of thiamine (Vitamin B1), which further exaserbates the potential for deficiencies, when I'm reasonably certain they're currently sufferin' from.

Fenbendazole appears to the least likely to do any harm to chickens, despite the lack of FDA approval for the off-label use of, and has been well documented to still have no adverse effects upon the bird, even at 100 times the reccommended dosage levels (save for emerging feathers during molt). Now, there may be some reason for concerns over meat 'n egg consumption, but most folks that name their chickens have no intentions of frying/baking/boiling 'em any time soon. And, you're most probably not concerned about any potential to degrade the quality of your rooster's semen ... the point is that it ain't gonna really hurt 'em one bit.

And, in regard to FDA? >>PECK HERE<< to see the Freedom of Information Summary about the use of SAFE-GUARD in the feed of growing turkeys.

Or, better still? The PubMed.gov database, from within a document located at NIH.GOV, regarding it's use in Africa to treat parasites we're not very likely to find w/in our chickens:

Fenbendazole 4% (Panacur, Hoechst) administered in feed was used to treat chickens infected with Ascaridia galli, Heterakis gallinarum and Railletina spp. It was also used to treat Syngamus trachea in broiler birds. There was a marked drop in helminth egg counts in the faeces on the second day of treatment and the faeces became negative by the seventh day after the last treatment. Post-mortem examination 15 to 21 days later showed that the drug was 100% effective against Ascaridia galli and Heterakis gallinarum at 10 mg/kg. However, for complete removal of Railletina spp. 15 mg/kg was required. Similarly 20 mg/kg fenbendazole was effective against Syngamus trachea. It was concluded that fenbendazole is suitable for the treatment of the important intestinal and tracheal worms of poultry, a dose of 15 to 20 mg/kg for 3 consecutive days being recommended for use under field conditions.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: I'm no vet, and I ain't claiming that this will cure your birds of coccidiosis. Or, for that matter, that the Amprolium absolutely won't ... just sayin' I'd begin these first two treatments immediately, and that they won't do you or your chickens any harm.

Most medications intended to attack coccidia suggest leaving the litter unchanged, presuming the development of some level of immunity w/in younger birds. It is my suspicion, based upon your posts, that you're dealing w/ either different oocytes or that they have become resistant to treatment. Therefore, I would try 'n remove them (or, at least, reduce their numbers) from your flock's environment, and I think starting w/ a flush would be something worthy of consideration. As to the cleaning? I'd repeat the process often, as they're gonna spread 'em all over again before/during/after treatment.

For a better understanding of coccidiosis, read this document from Dr. Julie Helm of Clemson University (and anything else you can from her, as she's one fine champion for chickens everywhere ~'-)
 
Here's what I would do, beginning right now, with as detailed arguments as to why ...

1. Replace their water with an astringent solution. Mix four teaspoons of (any) Apple Cider Vinegar to each gallon of water offered to all your birds (but NOT in galvanized metal containers).

Before anybody argues that it doesn't kill coccidia, or that it must have those trace amounts of enzyme folk call 'the mother' in it? I don't care, 'cause it's the acidity and the tannins that I'm lookin' for, primarily to strip the mucus from their systems, so as to improve nutrient/vitamin uptake, which also helps to boost their immune systems and allows them to better absorb any medication(s) given.

2. Give *something* right now, in absence of evidence to the contrary, rather than waiting for what you'd rather use. Preferably something that you haven't tried, based upon the Active Ingredient rather than Brand (i.e. if you are waiting for Corid, then you are waiting for just a specific brand-name of Amprolium, which you can pick up in multiple forms, and at multiple locations close by).

Based upon your other posts, now that I've been afforded the opportunity to read them, they're stuffed full of parasites ... that's why they're sick, and why their immune systems are failing ... for example, that's where all the Vitamin B1 they need is goin' to, and Corid (Amprolium) kills oocytes by blocking the uptake of thiamine (Vitamin B1), which further exaserbates the potential for deficiencies, when I'm reasonably certain they're currently sufferin' from.

Fenbendazole appears to the least likely to do any harm to chickens, despite the lack of FDA approval for the off-label use of, and has been well documented to still have no adverse effects upon the bird, even at 100 times the reccommended dosage levels (save for emerging feathers during molt). Now, there may be some reason for concerns over meat 'n egg consumption, but most folks that name their chickens have no intentions of frying/baking/boiling 'em any time soon. And, you're most probably not concerned about any potential to degrade the quality of your rooster's semen ... the point is that it ain't gonna really hurt 'em one bit.

And, in regard to FDA? >>PECK HERE<< to see the Freedom of Information Summary about the use of SAFE-GUARD in the feed of growing turkeys.

Or, better still? The PubMed.gov database, from within a document located at NIH.GOV, regarding it's use in Africa to treat parasites we're not very likely to find w/in our chickens:

Fenbendazole 4% (Panacur, Hoechst) administered in feed was used to treat chickens infected with Ascaridia galli, Heterakis gallinarum and Railletina spp. It was also used to treat Syngamus trachea in broiler birds. There was a marked drop in helminth egg counts in the faeces on the second day of treatment and the faeces became negative by the seventh day after the last treatment. Post-mortem examination 15 to 21 days later showed that the drug was 100% effective against Ascaridia galli and Heterakis gallinarum at 10 mg/kg. However, for complete removal of Railletina spp. 15 mg/kg was required. Similarly 20 mg/kg fenbendazole was effective against Syngamus trachea. It was concluded that fenbendazole is suitable for the treatment of the important intestinal and tracheal worms of poultry, a dose of 15 to 20 mg/kg for 3 consecutive days being recommended for use under field conditions.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: I'm no vet, and I ain't claiming that this will cure your birds of coccidiosis. Or, for that matter, that the Amprolium absolutely won't ... just sayin' I'd begin these first two treatments immediately, and that they won't do you or your chickens any harm.

Most medications intended to attack coccidia suggest leaving the litter unchanged, presuming the development of some level of immunity w/in younger birds. It is my suspicion, based upon your posts, that you're dealing w/ either different oocytes or that they have become resistant to treatment. Therefore, I would try 'n remove them (or, at least, reduce their numbers) from your flock's environment, and I think starting w/ a flush would be something worthy of consideration. As to the cleaning? I'd repeat the process often, as they're gonna spread 'em all over again before/during/after treatment.

For a better understanding of coccidiosis, read this document from Dr. Julie Helm of Clemson University (and anything else you can from her, as she's one fine champion for chickens everywhere ~'-)
You are correct, fenbendazole will not treat cocci, amprolium (corid) will.
 
You are correct, fenbendazole will not treat cocci, amprolium (corid) will.

But, it's most often extremely effective against nematodiasis ~'-)
And, it's entirely possible that the amprolium may not be effective against coccidiosis, most esp. if Eimeria tenella, E. acervulina and E. maxima are responsible for her flock's infection ...


... based upon her previous posts, it appears that she has been struggling w/ this for plenty of time to have developed strains resistant to some, if not all, of the medications previously used.

And, gettin' rid of worms doesn't appear to ever be a 'bad idea' when the flock is still up 'n about. I'm still wondering if, prior to treating for coccidiosis, an internal flush w/ laxative solution wouldn't be the 'better idea' in such extreme cases?
 
Quote:
... based upon her previous posts, it appears that she has been struggling w/ this for plenty of time to have developed strains resistant to some, if not all, of the medications previously used.

And, gettin' rid of worms doesn't appear to ever be a 'bad idea' when the flock is still up 'n about. I'm still wondering if, prior to treating for coccidiosis, an internal flush w/ laxative solution wouldn't be the 'better idea' in such extreme cases?

There is nothing in this thread regarding a nematode problem (roundworms.) This thread is about cocci treatment as you already know, and the first part of it is almost 2 years old and most likely the cocci problem was resolved.
I was responding to Orangeymom's recent post regarding her vet's recommendation in treating her cocci problem with corid rather than sulmet. It sounds like she's got a good vet that knows what he's talking about and is well qualified to make sound recommendations as far as proper treatment is concerned for her chickens. Once she receives the corid and treats her birds with it, I'm sure she'll repost and let us know whether or not treatment was successful.
 
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There is nothing in this thread regarding a nematode problem (roundworms.) This thread is about cocci treatment as you already know, and the first part of it is almost 2 years old and most likely the cocci problem was resolved.
I was responding to Orangeymom's recent post regarding her vet's recommendation in treating her cocci problem with corid rather than sulmet. It sounds like she's got a good vet that knows what he's talking about and is well qualified to make sound recommendations as far as proper treatment is concerned for her chickens. Once she receives the corid and treats her birds with it, I'm sure she'll repost and let us know whether or not treatment was successful.

Actually? I thought this thread was about the treatment of a flock w/ a rather lengthy battle w/ parasites yet unidentified, as the vet you presume to be both good and well qualified has yet to tell her specifically what they're infected with (but, perhaps I overlooked that, as well as the date ... thanks ~'-)

:: edit :: you may have overlooked the abstract you responded to, which is most specifically about coccidia :: /edit ::
 
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ACV stripping the mucus to increase nutrient absorption??? Never heard of such a thing...got any research on that one? I don't normally ask for research, particularly on things like ACV as there isn't much scientific study done on it, but this seems a little far-fetched. The mucosa in the bowel produces a certain amount of mucus that is necessary to protect the intestinal lining...ACV wouldn't "strip" this mucus and doesn't act as an astringent to the bowel, that I am aware of. This would leave the bowel vulnerable to digestive acids that could cause ulcerations and subsequent septicemia from any bacteria in the bowel. A certain level of mucus in the bowel is not only healthy but it's downright necessary...any agent that removes the mucus in the bowel would be a big detriment to health...

....and ACV just doesn't do that...sorry. I don't know where you got your info on that, but I'd have to see that one in black and white from a reliable source before believing in that. The bacilli in ACV actually attach to the mucosa and provide a probiotic effect on any new foods introduced into the digestive tract...that would be difficult to do if it was also stripping all the mucus away from that same mucosa.

ACV(with mother) can, however, help prevent coccidiosis:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...osis-and-other-poultry-diseases-in-chicks-acv


On the other hand, the use of mother vinegar does increase absorption of nutrients by increasing the number and size of villi in the intestines, thus increasing the total area capable of absorption and the capillaries that carry out this nutrient exchange.

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search/display.do?f=2010/KR/KR1001.xml;KR2009002225


Quote: Another interesting article on the use of ACV:

http://www.avianweb.com/Lactobacillus.htm
 
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ACV stripping the mucus to increase nutrient absorption??? Never heard of such a thing...got any research on that one? I don't normally ask for research, particularly on things like ACV as there isn't much scientific study done on it, but this seems a little far-fetched. The mucosa in the bowel produces a certain amount of mucus that is necessary to protect the intestinal lining...ACV wouldn't "strip" this mucus and doesn't act as an astringent to the bowel, that I am aware of. This would leave the bowel vulnerable to digestive acids that could cause ulcerations and subsequent septicemia from any bacteria in the bowel. A certain level of mucus in the bowel is not only healthy but it's downright necessary...any agent that removes the mucus in the bowel would be a big detriment to health...

....and ACV just doesn't do that...sorry. I don't know where you got your info on that, but I'd have to see that one in black and white from a reliable source before believing in that. The bacilli in ACV actually attach to the mucosa and provide a probiotic effect on any new foods introduced into the digestive tract...that would be difficult to do if it was also stripping all the mucus away from that same mucosa.

ACV(with mother) can, however, help prevent coccidiosis:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...osis-and-other-poultry-diseases-in-chicks-acv


On the other hand, the use of mother vinegar does increase absorption of nutrients by increasing the number and size of villi in the intestines, thus increasing the total area capable of absorption and the capillaries that carry out this nutrient exchange.

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search/display.do?f=2010/KR/KR1001.xml;KR2009002225


Another interesting article on the use of ACV:

http://www.avianweb.com/Lactobacillus.htm

I did not know a bit about the ideal length of villi, or that ACV had any affect upon it. Or, that chicks had 'em, 'til now ~'-)

As to ACV reducing the viscosity and amounts of mucus w/in ... well ... just about anything that drinks it? ACV been used for years to break up mucus, as your mom probably did w/ you, but in the 'exactly how' column? It's suggested, in regard to poultry, to be the tannins w/in ACV, but I've used plain ol' vinegar to etch surfaces and remove films of all manner, and suspect that it's more the reduction of pH that's responsible, but w/o proof of my suspicion.

I didn't take enough biological chemistry in college to prove that one on my own. But, I did find a study on the viscosity of canin tracheal mucin glycoprotein, which was subjected to mild acid hydrolysis w/ aqueous acetic acid, which showed the complete removal of glycosidically bound sialic acid residues, while all other sugar residues remained intact. The result? Approximately 50% drop in the relative viscosity (nr) occurred.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7999055


The concentration suggested, and the reasons you have doubts of, comes from the Mississippi Agricultural and Forestry Experiment Station, Mississippi State University Extension Service (man, that sure was a lot of issipps ... ~'-)
This information is also repeated almost verbatim at a different URL.

ASTRINGENT SOLUTION

This solution can be used to treat young birds that show non-typical disease symptoms of poor growth. The solution can also be given to birds suffering from respiratory diseases that produce a large amount of mucus exudate. This solution will help "cut through" the mucus and allow it to be expelled easier.

Two quarts of apple cider vinegar diluted into 100 gallons of water
(4 teaspoons/gallon)

The tannin in the apple cider vinegar aide in removing any mucus or coating from the mouth, throat, or intestinal tract. Nutrients and drugs are more readily absorbed. Offer this solution as the only drinking water source for two to three day intervals.


Verification of the dosage, and some support for my theory of the benefits of lowering the pH a point or two, can be found at University of Kentucky, College of Agriculture, which says:

Apple cider vinegar is rich in the vitamins, minerals and trace elements found in apples, especially potassium. In chickens it has been shown to lower the pH in the digestive tract which will make an environment less welcoming to pathogens reducing common infections and increasing resistance to disease. Typical inclusion levels are 1/8 – 1/4 of a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to every 110 ml of water (or 4.5 - 8.5 teaspoons per gallon). This level of inclusion will also discourage algae growth. It should be given for 2-3 days at a time.


Also, in regard to breaking down mucus w/in humans as well, a few results from googling ...

How to Break Down Sinus Pressure & Mucus | eHow.com
www.ehow.com › Family Health
Try adding apple cider vinegar to the water you drink The acetic acid in the vinegar breaks down the thick mucus. 3. Use steam. Steam is a soothing way to ...

Infographic - Ten ways to use Apple Cider Vinegar
www.naturalnews.com/036142_apple_cider_vinegar_reference_grap...
Jun 12, 2012 – It also helps break up mucous throughout the body and helps ... daily intake of acetic acid (which is prevalent in apple cider vinegar). ....


One additional use, which is of great importance when birds are allowed to free range, is that it aids in the removal of toxins formed by Botulism bacteria (which I'm certain of, as this is also a treatment for humans) and, if I remember correctly, the fungus Aspergillus (which I'm not sure about).
 
I'll tell you what cowcreekgeek, if your birds ever get a bad case of cocci (which I hope they dont)...take it from someone who knows: Treat them with corid. NOT ACV. Good luck.
 
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I'll tell you what cowcreekgeek, if your birds ever get a bad case of cocci (which I hope they dont)...take it from someone who knows: Treat them with corid. NOT ACV. Good luck.

I'm legally blind, with both wet/dry types of macular degeneration, and myopic degeneration, which gives me good excuse for overlookin' things from time to time -- usin' one eye, at a distance of about 2" to respond to your words. So, what's your excuse for overlookin' mine?

In the last post, only the first line mentioned nematodasis, and you missed the entire point, in that it very specifically outlines the abstract of study in which various coccidia had shown resistance to various medications used, and it was in response directly to your own.

And, in this post, which very specifically answers a direct question by beekissed about the use of ACV to reduce the viscosity of mucus, I don't recall making any mention of coccidiosis, although ACV has been proven to reduce the levels of infection w/in some breeds of laying hens (not as a treatment, but as a preventative measure).

I've personally seen what coccidia can do to an unprotected flock; I used Amprolium w/ my chicks 'n keets (soOo, you're preachin' to the choir ~'-)

Don't get me wrong, dawg: I don't wanna discourage you from responding; just hope you'll not take for granted the ease w/ which you can.
 
Thinning mucus and "stripping" it are two vastly different things.
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If this study meant it stripped the mucus, it would be a very bad thing...not healthy at all for mucosa(the layer of an organ that produces mucus) to be stripped of it's protective layer of mucus. You might want to switch your wording from stripping to thinning when paraphrasing the study results.
 

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