Cochin breeding, genetics, and showing

[just2rosey]

I would love to see this thread become active again. I would love to learn more about the partridge color and how to select the right combination of birds for breeding. We are breeding bantam partridge cochins for my daughter's 4H project. We did have a trio, but we lost one pullet, who turned out to have a couple of DQ's anyway. We are down to a pair and have our first small batch of eggs in the incubator.

First our little rooster.

Our little pullet, Loreeta. I think she had nice penciling on most of her feathers, but I still see some feathers that look barred. Is that normal?

This is the pullet we lost. We have one chick we hatched from her last few eggs.

This is the first chick. It is lighter in color than I expected. What do any more experienced partridge breeders make of this color?

Thank you for any information and feedback.

 

[lilcrow]

Quote:
Rosey, I am far from an expert on the Partridge variety, but I'm sure if we continue to use the thread some of the real experts will check in with us.
Your hen looks nice form what I can see, and the feather pattern is much better than this second generation of birds that I have. I don't know if you saw Craig's hen that he took to the Western National, https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=195235&p=792 (toward the bottom of the page) but she has gorgeous pencilling. It's crisp, clean and appears to be very uniform all over her body. I had been trying to at least see what a true Partridge hen pattern should look like, so I went to the Wyandottes to see what theirs look like. To me it's breathtaking, I absolutely love the Partridge pattern, so once I saw what it should be, I realized I had to clean house. The only birds that I have worth keeping are the original hens and a pair that I got from Jamie Matts. I have no idea what my original roo looked like as a chick, but I'm absolutely sure that he is the cause of the barring. EVERY one of his offspring have the barred feather pattern with only a few areas on the body that have correct pencilling. I have read somewhere that breeding for dark brown or mahogany as the base color will correct the barring that they are exhibiting. I'd like to get that varified before I hatch out a bunch of chicks from hens that show any amount of barring.
If the above reason is correct, it might give me reason to feel a little bit concerned about the color of your chick pictured below. However please don't do anything with it based on anything that I have said. Accessing the chick is an issue best left to the experts when they show up. If I were going to guess, I would say that it will be a particularly light, golden based bird, which is sadly not only incorrect, but very possibly the cause of the barring.
I'm very glad you posted to the thread,

I hope we can get it going again.
Nancy

 

[just2rosey]

The breeder I purchased my current breeding pair from mentioned having red and gold partridge cochins. In recent reading I found that the UK has gold partridge, but they are not penciled. They were marked more like a brown leghorn. Here in the US, there is not a second color of partridge recognized. This fits with your comment about the darker color being linked to penciling. I would love have that verified. I have seen some pics of some very light colored penciled partridges. This is a picture I came across while researching, and she is much lighter than my current pullet. I prefer the darker color.

If my light colored chick ends up this nice, I will keep it for sentimental reasons, we'll see if I ever use it for breeding. Oops. Time to head back to work.

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
So, since that's my bird in the photo, I figured I'd throw my two cents in here. True she is too light in color, but I caution you about getting so wrapped up in the color that you overlook the type. You can have the best mahogany based color with perfect penciling around, but if that bird isn't carrying Cochin type, it's just a partridge colored chicken. When evaluating birds for your breeding program, type needs to be considered first, color second. You can use a light colored bird, but you need match that bird to an opposite sex that is as dark as possible. I'd shy away from using a light male if possible, but wouldn't hesitate to use a light female with excellent type x very dark partridge male. I no longer raise the Partridge Bantams, but I do have Large Fowl Partridge Cochins. Getting that nice dark ground color is a challenge with the Large Fowl too.

The bird in this photo is a 2010 hatch bird.

 

[OwensMom]

Thanks for ressurecting this thread. I have no input because I know nothing but am trying to learn. Thanks again.

 

[just2rosey]

Mr. Roebuck, I am so glad to see you visit the thread.

I think she is a lovely hen, I hope you didn't think I was making disparaging remarks about her. I didn't mean to use your photo without permission, I found it on another website with tons of cochin photos.

I intended to be using her as an example that I feel shows that penciling is a separate set of genes from color. I just ran out of time to explain my thoughts in the middle of that post. Silver penciled have the same penciling, but totally different colors as another example (unless I am more confused than I realize). That is a much darker bird in the picture you posted,

but I can't see the penciling/ feather markings due to the small photo size. I do not disagree with you that type comes before color. I just don't know how much more rounded a shape I could get without needing to use AI. I want my birds to be able to do the deed without help and have the best shape possible while maintaining that. I know that goal could undermine success in a show, but honestly, I don't see us going to anything but local shows anyway. I think productivity and purpose need to come first in all poultry breeding. I just think AI conflicts with this ideal. I was concerned that my rooster's hackle feathers might be to light. They don't have a black stripe in them as described in my breeding book, but gold instead. I suspect this could be the source of the lightness in the chick. He also sired (horse word, I know) the batch in the incubator now. If I am right, I may be looking for another cock for my flock.

 

[lilcrow]

Tom, I know there's no reason for you to remember the pullet that you critiqued for me, but following the judging at Crossroads I was trying to get a full understanding of the judges notes, and "color" didn't mean a lot to me. I needed to get clarification on it, I knew you would know and you were kind enough to oblige me in my quest. I'm not saying that my birds have perfect type - far from it - however at this time I think the color and penciling are serious enough to warrant my full attention in this next generation. As I mentioned in my earlier post, every single female AND male for that matter, develop the barring. There are several of these birds that I think have good enough type that they could find a place in someones breeding program - even mine possibly if I can correct or breed out this problem. I've got a gorgeous hen with excellent type, in that regard I even consider her my best hen, but her color is terrible.
After seeing the picture of your hen, I feel a bit discouraged because I thought by darkening my birds, I would regain the pencilling. If it's not the color, how do I get the pencilling back? Your hen is beautiful and in breeding her, I would think that the only thing left to work on is the lightness/darkness of the base color. Her pencilling is excellent and uniform from what I can see. If you can recall, the pullet you looked at for me has acceptable pencilling on her breast and cushion, but has very definite barring on the rest of her body. You also commented that the areas of the pencilling vs. barring was a bit different from the norm.
I have a very difficult time looking at a mature male and assessing his base color, pullets/hens are so much easier. When I look at my males, once they've gone through a molt, they look very much like any other good Partridge male. I see their color as dark and red, even mahogany, and the barring is not obvious on them. I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out what males to pair with what females so that I can correct this problem.
Am I wrong in my decision to eliminate all of my males, save the cock bird that I got from Jamie, and all of this years offspring because they ALL have serious barring. My original hens have good pencilling and are reasonably dark, so my thought is to keep them and the one hen that I like so much (type), even though her color is bad, and breed them to Jamie's bird. If the "type" hen still throws this barring - on every chick that is, she'll need to go also.
I hope I haven't drawn this out to much and made a confusing mess of it, but I really do want to improve my birds and have no idea how to go about, other than starting over completely.

 

[DreadElliot]

Frizzle Cochin Bantam isn't she pretty!

 

[lilcrow]

Quote:
Very

What is she? Brown-Red?
You might want to post this on "the Cochin Thread."

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
Nope, I didn't think you were making disparaging remarks at all. She does have pretty good penciling, just too light in the ground color. you can still breed for feather mass and not AI. you'll just have to pluck some feathers around the vent on both the males and females. Fertility won't be quite as good as AI, but you should get fertile eggs. My birds can still breed even though I AI. I use AI to get in and out of breeding season quickly. I don't like stretching it out any longer than I have to because I wind up with too large a range of ages in the chicks, which causes problems when trying to pen them later on.