Cochin Thread!!!

[Coopa Cabana]

Quote:
Thanks! I think they're all pretty too, but I'm getting ready to do some culling. They're about 5 months old now, and I'm becoming less and less happy with the type on most of them. What really stinks of that, as I've been watching them grow, the ones with the worst color have the best type! I have one cockerel and two or three pullets that I'm pretty pleased with though! I just bought three new pens that each have 4 compartments in them (really nice, custom-built wood and wire pens, and I got them for a steal), so my imagination's been running wild as far as what I can do with them with all this new pen space.

I'll post pictures of all of them and get opinions before I make the final decision of who stays and who goes in a few months.

dak - She's beautiful!

So how do you chose on type versus color? Especially with the Columbians - who have such an intricate pattern.

 

[Sweetfolly]

Quote:
Thanks! I think they're all pretty too, but I'm getting ready to do some culling. They're about 5 months old now, and I'm becoming less and less happy with the type on most of them. What really stinks of that, as I've been watching them grow, the ones with the worst color have the best type! I have one cockerel and two or three pullets that I'm pretty pleased with though! I just bought three new pens that each have 4 compartments in them (really nice, custom-built wood and wire pens, and I got them for a steal), so my imagination's been running wild as far as what I can do with them with all this new pen space.

I'll post pictures of all of them and get opinions before I make the final decision of who stays and who goes in a few months.

dak - She's beautiful!

So how do you chose on type versus color? Especially with the Columbians - who have such an intricate pattern.

I don't know!

That's why I'm going to ask opinions before I decide!

The pullet that I think has the best type has absolutely NO color on her. I'd tend to choose more towards type than color...and then heavily cull for color once the type is uniformly better....

BUT that turns into an awfully long, complicated project.

I wonder if there's another, more common color that I could "safely" cross to to improve the type, but get the Columbian pattern back in the F2 or F3 generation?

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
Good morning. Since you mentioned wanting to raise and sell these eggs as Partridge, I wanted to make a couple comments. The females in the pictures are not correctly marked. They display typical lack of pattern that we see in the Partridge Cochin bantams. Check your standard. For Partridge or Silver Penciled (pattern description is the same), they should have distinct penciling throughout the entire body. Your females appear to have some limited penciling in their breast area, and then fade to no pattern definition across back and through the cushion. Additionally, they have shafting, which is the light quill color (straw color) that you see in the photo. This is a serious defect and once established very hard to get rid of in a line. I am not trying to put your birds down, simply pointing out that they do not display the proper color pattern. I raise Partridge Bantams and it is a very difficult pattern to get correct. I cull hard for shafting. Out of about 20 that I raised this year I have culled to 3 ckls and 5 pullets. The pullets that show barring in their juvenile plumage are usually the ones stand a good chance of being penciled, although the penciling on Partridge Bantams is still too thick. You said that the pullet in the photo was the better of what you had hatched. What does the male look like? He does impact the color of the female offspring as well, although when breeding for well marked pullets you want to start with the best marked females possible.

I had to go back to Joanie's pic to see what "shafting" is? Are you talking about the thin light color running down the center of the feathers? Thanx again, Tom, for the great info. Sometimes when culling, we have to decide between the lesser of 2 evils (traits/defects), and its always good to know which can be passed on and which are singular to particular birds.

Like right now, I'm trying to decide between combs and cushes. I have a 2-month old with a near-perfect comb, but IMO, his cush is a bit too skinny, and possibly too upright. His brother has a wider and lower cush, and the points on the comb are good, but the comb is slightly wavy. Both have eight distinct toes and nails. This particular generation is NOT for show, but rather breeding stock for my F2's, so I'm more concerned with what traits will pass on, as opposed to what traits will show well in one particular bird. Does that make sense?

Coopa,
Yes, the thin straw colored center line to those feathers that stands out. The shafts of Partridge feathers should be black. The shafter detracts from the overall appearance. It is part of the standard color description for a couple breeds/varieties but not Partridge. As far as the combs vs cushion goes, if you have to choose one over the other go with the cushion. Type first and foremost. You can fix poor comb traits easier than poor body type, and if using the scale of points the cut for comb flaws is much less than for overall breed type conformation. For instance if you're wavy combed cockerel is the better typed bird, match him up to females that have as near perfect combs as possible. You'll still get a few combs you don't like but by and large countering a flaw in one half of the equation with as good as you can get on the other works pretty well. Ultimately the goal would be to use two birds with 5 points and nice straight combs. Working with new varieties and rarer varieties that isn't a luxury we have and it also seems that when you blend the genetics of two totally unrelated lines, it brings out latent surprises (i.e. poor combs).
Tom

 

[Coopa Cabana]

Quote:
So how do you chose on type versus color? Especially with the Columbians - who have such an intricate pattern.

I don't know!

That's why I'm going to ask opinions before I decide!

The pullet that I think has the best type has absolutely NO color on her. I'd tend to choose more towards type than color...and then heavily cull for color once the type is uniformly better....

BUT that turns into an awfully long, complicated project.

I wonder if there's another, more common color that I could "safely" cross to to improve the type, but get the Columbian pattern back in the F2 or F3 generation?

Hopefully, Tom or Erin can help you with that. I think your only choice would be a White, as its recessive, but I think its only recessive as long as it doesn't run into another recessive white, at which point it would become dominant. I'd have to get my genetics books out, as I really don't work with whites. Is the recessive white gene in solid whites the same white/silver gene in the Columbians? If so, then I don't think you can use white. If its a different gene, then you could probably use it.

Are we having fun yet?

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
So how do you chose on type versus color? Especially with the Columbians - who have such an intricate pattern.

I don't know!

That's why I'm going to ask opinions before I decide!

The pullet that I think has the best type has absolutely NO color on her. I'd tend to choose more towards type than color...and then heavily cull for color once the type is uniformly better....

BUT that turns into an awfully long, complicated project.

I wonder if there's another, more common color that I could "safely" cross to to improve the type, but get the Columbian pattern back in the F2 or F3 generation?

Welcome to the fun and frustrating hobby of parti-colored poultry breeding. I wouldn't necessarily discard the undermarked pullet. She's out of a Co X Co breeding so there are at least some of the genetics running around in the background though she may be short a pattern gene or so. Type, type, type. Always go with type first. If it's perfect as far as color goes, but doesn't look a thing like the breed is supposed to, then you don't have a Columbian Cochin, you have a Columbian chicken with some feathers on his/her feet. No need to go outside the variety IMO for type. I'll get some pics taken of the youngsters and the oldsters I have. You'll see the type is good. It's the color that needs work. I have hatched some of the clearest backed (no smut) females this year that I've had so far. I focused on using breeding birds that had as clean hackles and saddles as possible, particularly with the females. Seems to have paid off. I didn't have as many color culls in the pullets this year. However the wing markings are still a challenge.

 

[joanie_maine]

Quote:
Good morning. Since you mentioned wanting to raise and sell these eggs as Partridge, I wanted to make a couple comments. The females in the pictures are not correctly marked. They display typical lack of pattern that we see in the Partridge Cochin bantams. Check your standard. For Partridge or Silver Penciled (pattern description is the same), they should have distinct penciling throughout the entire body. Your females appear to have some limited penciling in their breast area, and then fade to no pattern definition across back and through the cushion. Additionally, they have shafting, which is the light quill color (straw color) that you see in the photo. This is a serious defect and once established very hard to get rid of in a line. I am not trying to put your birds down, simply pointing out that they do not display the proper color pattern. I raise Partridge Bantams and it is a very difficult pattern to get correct. I cull hard for shafting. Out of about 20 that I raised this year I have culled to 3 ckls and 5 pullets. The pullets that show barring in their juvenile plumage are usually the ones stand a good chance of being penciled, although the penciling on Partridge Bantams is still too thick. You said that the pullet in the photo was the better of what you had hatched. What does the male look like? He does impact the color of the female offspring as well, although when breeding for well marked pullets you want to start with the best marked females possible.

Oh well, I guess it's the same old story...not good enough.

Thanks for the critique

 

[luvchicks8]

My new baby she keeps her eyes shut alot but when she opens them they are clear and without help. Anyway she is so cute!!Bad pic really she is very blue colored
closed

open

 

[cochinman2005]

To continue my earlier response on the Partridge Cochin Bantams, I took a couple photos tonight to provide some clarification on what I wrote before.

This is a two year old hen. Still too light as far as the base color goes, and you can see that her chest is notch lighter in ground color than the rest of her body.

Same hen. Hackle is too light, and should have complete black centers to each feather. You can also see the penciling is too thick. The ground color should be darker, more mahagony.

This is a 2010 Partridge pullet (Large Fowl). She doesn't have very good definition to her penciling, especially as you get farther toward her cushion, but she does have good ground color. Her hackle marking is correct with solid black centers.

Three year old bantam Male.

 

[shelleyb1969]

I have a question regarding the Colombians and will appreciate any help. I bought my breeders as youngsters last year and have been successfully hatching from them since spring. Is Colombian breeding, in general, very sporatic in reference to color pattern? I've hatched a lot of really, really nicely patterned chicks...but I've also hatched just as many not-so-nice chicks. Is this normal? I've culled 2 of my hens this summer due to them having too much "smut" in their color and I thought that they were the source of my problem. I'm down now to my very nice rooster, one very nice hen, and a really nice pullet that I hatched out. Can I expect to still have the occasional overmarked, smutty, chicks?

 

[cochinman2005]

Annarie,
A couple pics from tonight.

2010 Pullet

2010 Pullet

2008 Male

2009 Male

Both Males were used for breeding this year. The 2009 male is bit too brassy for my liking and he may be replaced in the breeding pen next year depending how he molts this year.

Buff Columbian pullet. Not enough marking in the hackle and tail, but very even color, although she lacks slate undercolor. I still haven't decided if she is a keeper yet.

The 2008 Male would be a good match up for an undermarked female. He carries his saddle markings too far forward into the back, but his markings are pretty well defined. Though his wing markings are still not where they should be. Too much white in the primaries. So I don't think you have to go outside the variety for type. Just need to hatch big numbers and cull hard.