Cochin Thread!!!

[lilcrow]

I can see where some people might get the wrong idea from craig's post... I don't think it was aimed at anyone in particular, but at the same time might have been worded a bit better. yes i know it was a quote, but could have been paraphrased maybe.

the topic of breeding x to y and 'what will i get' is repeated quite often, sometimes aggravatingly so. and 9 times out of 10, you won't get anything predictable most likely. but IMO, if you want to produce mutts that can't be shown, simply for more egg layers and meat birds (excess roosters), have at it. .

but don't try to go off and say they are 'purebred' cochins, since they're not. that's what aggravates me the most, are people at local swaps, trying to sell something as purebred that has no place even being called *fill in the breed name here*.

my 2 primary breeds are bantam cochins and dorkings. yes, i have projects in both breeds, of unrecognized (by the American Poultry Association) color varieties, but at the same time, i also have an understanding of the genetics behind the varieties i'm working with, and a definite goal in mind. not just indiscriminately breeding random birds to see what i get. my dorkings are just the opposite... one strain has been mixed up so much over the years that it won't breed true anymore, and i'm trying to sort out what mutations are actually being worked with. so in this respect, yes i'm breeding these ?? birds to plain red roosters, to 'see what happens'. but my goal here is to narrow down the mutations that ARE there and eliminate the ones that shouldn't be. again, there's a definate goal at work.

it's those 'oops' birds that I see at a lot of swaps being sold as 'purebred' cochins, when one parent was a black the other buff, and the chicks come out with random markings and colorations. blacks with red leakage, buff-ish birds with odd black feathers here and there, whatever. and the parents weren't show quality birds to begin with either, so the type is vaguely cochin-ish but they have stiff tail feathers, lacking in a decent cushion, sparse foot feathering, and the list goes on...

so unless you're asking about breeding a gold to silver of the same variety (laced, birchen/brown red, partridge/penciled, columbian, etc) your results will NOT be predictable. especially when a solid colored bird is involved, as the genes involved in those varieties tend to mask other mutations that can remain hidden for generations. go back and look at Andy Capp's birchen-ish chick that resulted from breeding a black to a white...

sorry if i rambled too much... i might answer these 'what do i get' posts occasionally, but for the most part, unless you want to produce essentially mutt birds, i wouldn't.

Very well said........
as was Craig's quote. I also very much agree with dak. The point about reading, reading and researching and when you encounter a contradiction bring it to the forum is perfect, I think.

 

[mama2my4]

Being a newbie I have to come in here. I understand that breeders are busy. My approach is to read, read, read and when I lack the understanding I find a breeder that is currently working with or has worked with the variety or breed in question and email them directly. Either they will answer you or they won't. But I always approach it as "it you have a minute....". I have been very fortunate that most people I have reached out to have answered my questions, because they do love this breed and generally want to further it. I have received a reply with, sorry not now. And I get that. Ad I will try again at a different time. I have been very lucky to find a few people working on my chose variety (SL) that have helped me know where to start, because genetics is like Greek to me... And even had one take time to talk to me on the phone.

Hang in there. Decide what variety you want to work with, as opposed to "this is what I have, what can I make" and search out someone willing to mentor you.

 

[Mr. Ree]

I can see where some people might get the wrong idea from craig's post... I don't think it was aimed at anyone in particular, but at the same time might have been worded a bit better. yes i know it was a quote, but could have been paraphrased maybe.

the topic of breeding x to y and 'what will i get' is repeated quite often, sometimes aggravatingly so. and 9 times out of 10, you won't get anything predictable most likely. but IMO, if you want to produce mutts that can't be shown, simply for more egg layers and meat birds (excess roosters), have at it. .

but don't try to go off and say they are 'purebred' cochins, since they're not. that's what aggravates me the most, are people at local swaps, trying to sell something as purebred that has no place even being called *fill in the breed name here*.

my 2 primary breeds are bantam cochins and dorkings. yes, i have projects in both breeds, of unrecognized (by the American Poultry Association) color varieties, but at the same time, i also have an understanding of the genetics behind the varieties i'm working with, and a definite goal in mind. not just indiscriminately breeding random birds to see what i get. my dorkings are just the opposite... one strain has been mixed up so much over the years that it won't breed true anymore, and i'm trying to sort out what mutations are actually being worked with. so in this respect, yes i'm breeding these ?? birds to plain red roosters, to 'see what happens'. but my goal here is to narrow down the mutations that ARE there and eliminate the ones that shouldn't be. again, there's a definate goal at work.

it's those 'oops' birds that I see at a lot of swaps being sold as 'purebred' cochins, when one parent was a black the other buff, and the chicks come out with random markings and colorations. blacks with red leakage, buff-ish birds with odd black feathers here and there, whatever. and the parents weren't show quality birds to begin with either, so the type is vaguely cochin-ish but they have stiff tail feathers, lacking in a decent cushion, sparse foot feathering, and the list goes on...

so unless you're asking about breeding a gold to silver of the same variety (laced, birchen/brown red, partridge/penciled, columbian, etc) your results will NOT be predictable. especially when a solid colored bird is involved, as the genes involved in those varieties tend to mask other mutations that can remain hidden for generations. go back and look at Andy Capp's birchen-ish chick that resulted from breeding a black to a white...

sorry if i rambled too much... i might answer these 'what do i get' posts occasionally, but for the most part, unless you want to produce essentially mutt birds, i wouldn't.

I did read and read and read. I find that all the info is out there if you look for it. This is the computer age. If I found discrepancies in the information, then I asked questions. That is the purpose for these threads, to allow someone to educate themselves. Most breed clubs also provide basic info for newbies. If you want someone to take their time to answer repetitive questions, be considerate and do some basic research. We are all very busy this time of year setting up breeding pens and incubating and attending to incubators and brooders. Respect the time and effort you expect from others by putting in some yourself.

I agree, and in this age of the computer the information is out there. Take a little time and effort to search for things yourself, dont just expect everything you need to know to be told to you in one conversation, by one breeder. Show some effort and passion in what your interested in, let it be known how interested you are, not that you just want a pretty bird. I also think that people, especially here, too often take things to heart or far to personal. Breeding to standard takes much more work than just breeding two nice birds together. If you dont have a decent understanding for the breed or variety description it is difficult to breed with a set goal in mind.

Craigs post was honest and straight forward, he didnt do it to upset anyone or hurt anyones feelings. Everyone does have to learn somewhere, and we have to have interest at all times or the hobby will die out, but if you have never had a certain breed or ever had chickens before in your life dont expect to fall in love with a certain variety and when you cant find it create it yourself. Genetics is difficult to understand to even the "big time breeders", as some of us have been labeled, let alone someone who has very little experience with said breed, or with poultry in general.

~Casey

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

Exactly - so does that mean those that are busy HAVE to answer ? Can you not go by that question , let someone else answer that does have the time ? and let snide comments drop. But also i was referring to answers that turn off people completely to wanting to even have chickens.. or Bantams.... as I mentioned.... the answer Craig gave the other day... to a simple question about genetics/colors. Are you telling me that if someone asks a question here it has to be answered by people that are busy ??? Or that this thread is only for special status breeders with certain topics on their agenda ? I am very confused ?

Why do the busy people Have to answer? The answer is we don't have to answer but we often do have the information. This site goes for days sometimes without a comment. This site is both about showing off your chicks and birds and about sharing useful accurate information. People also have complained that nobody would comment on their post or answer their question in the past.

The comment earlier that we are all big breeders could not be farther from the truth. I know that several of the people commenting to my post raise and keep 30 chickens or less a year total. Truly Backyard Breeders. What they all are is VERY conscientious breeders. They have a plan. They know what they will do with their culls and or excess birds.

My comment does not mean I am right but it did serve its purpose of getting people talking and thinking about what is good for the breed. The quote was word for word but as I said earlier it does mirror my feelings. It is a comment on my feelings about the prolific breeding of X x Y birds that produce numerous culls and mutts. Often the potential breeder has no market for the offspring. There are 17 recognized varieties of Bantam Cochins as well as the possibility of Frizzle in everyone of those. Of those 34 possible recognized varieties only Black, Blue, Buff, Mottled, White are of good quality and have enough breeders that a fire at one breeders home won't possibly devastate a variety. There are also some project varieties that are still works in progress: Self Blue, Splash, Mille which are all moving forward.

The comment by Ki4got was also spot on! Can not disagree with those comments.

 

[davony's chicks]

• lilcrow
• 
• 

• Location: New Vienna, Ohio
• Joined: 4/2009
• Posts: 1,276
• offline

It's very difficult to really tell much about your bird because your pictures don't show what is needed to make a fair evaluation. They are at to great a distance. In the second picture he looks a bit better, as in nice cushion and more "round" in appearance, but he is still pretty tall. "Type" refers to a birds general appearance and how closely he meets the breed standard. In general breeders are selecting birds that appear to be a basketball with a head on it, and when I say "a head on it" that means just the head stuck on the ball, not the head AND neck. What little I can see about your bird shows that (head and neck) to be his main problem. His neck is just too long. I'm sure he has other issues, as all birds do, but it is impossible to tell from these pictures. What I can see in the second picture shows a bird that looks nice and full in his cushion and this is where most casually bred birds fall down badly. The cushion is the Cochin's trademark.
As far as learning jargon, hang around, read, talk to folks, and ask questions. That's how I learned. Some of the really big, well know breeders were born into it and some weren't.





After many attempts I finally was able to copy this post by Gail from the Cochin International FB Page to help explain type. Gail copied a picture of a Tom Roebuck to make this. I think it a very good visual reference.

When you think Cochin, think round, think circles. Look at how perfect these circles are. And remember that the beak should be slightly back of a line drawn perpendicular with the breast, and that a line drawn parallel with the top of the tail should bisect the eyes (males), or top of the comb (females).

This should have been around long ago. It's always been in writing but no one has ever drawn a diagram before. This is perfect!

 

[Coopa Cabana]

Quote:
There is a commercial running right now - this couple jumping up and down and celebrating because they just found out she's pregnant. Then he looks at her and says "Now What?" and she just shruggs quizzicallly.

I bought and read books and went to shows for over a year BEFORE I had even committed myself to getting chickens. 10 years ago, we didn't have all the online forums we have now-a-days, but that is still no excuse (IMHO) for anyone to jump in the deep end when they can't swim. I started out with a small flock of Silkies, and had absolutely no plans on keeping them for anything but pets. In fact, one of the first questions I ever asked a rep of the Colorado Poultry Assn. at a show was "Do people ever keep chickens as pets?" My, how the years have changed my direction and goals.

But it's not just about learning as much as you can about your favorite breed before bringing your chicks home. It's learning your local code enforcement; what is the best housing for your climate and your particular breed and number of birds you expect to keep, etc. There are so many posts on BYC: I just bought my birds home, and now my HOA tells me I can't keep them. Or they will post: It's snowing - now what will I do? Won't they get cold?

After 10 years, I'm still learning - not just about my chosen breed, but about being a good flock tender in general. I just popped my first spurs this past weekend - something I should have learned (and practiced) years ago. I still ask questions - I still listen to the answers. The way I figure it, as long as I continue to ask questions and learn, my birds will not only prosper and be happier, but will also improve, and I will be closer to my goals in the showhall.

 

[Brookiesbrooder]

Hey"big time breeders" and "newbies" remember there is always someone out thier who is even more educated than you.And I don't think the perfect cochin has been bred yet.People remember how they are/were treated. And one day when you arn't expecting it. One of the so called "newbies" could be the one beating your birds.Just a little food for thought.I said COULD because I believe there are few breeder in cochins ,I think just work magic ! They have an eye for this breed we all wish we had! There are many who have it but two that come right into my mind are Tom Roebuck and Joe Mazur.I appreciate each and every bird Tom shares with us here on the WWW. You usually have to catch one of Joe amazing birds in person to enjoy a look..So thank you to those willing to be an example .......Love cochin breeders Large and small.

P.S I also agree that people should do some reading before they jump right in from the" backyard breeder" page and ask the 1st thing at the top of thier head....lol

 

[Frizzled Pink]

Ok i have to confess as a newbie whenever i see Black Cochins/Craig comment from now on am going to think of Bob Barker(yes i was a fan of TPIR so this is a complement)--while not saying to spay or neuter your chickens, i believe he was just trying to make a point to breed responsibly. I think Mother Nature is going to throw enough curve balls--(I have HOW MANY ROOS!!!!!), that don't just play with what you have, unless your goal is just for pretty "mutt" chickens OR you are an experienced enough in chicken genetics to work on a project color variation.

I did have a thought though for you experienced peeps. Has anyone ever thought of starting a thread here "Learn about cochins" where you could put items like the diagram above where us newbies could look and let the light bulbs of knowledge come on? Hopefully it could be 10 pages or so that could be referred to for those types of beginner questions instead of us trying to go thru all 1353 pages in this post.

 

[Fancy Feathers]

Nancy (lilcrow) started a Cochin thread here on BYC for that very purpose. Really that thread could use some activity.

 

[mjgigax]

Thank you. Obviously, I am very new to this and only set out wanting some "pretty" chickens running around, thus I fell in love with the Cochins.
After one of the post here, I am some what afraid to ask "uneducated" questions concerning color, genetics, standards etc. I do not want to offend any "expert" breeders by asking uneducated questions and/or to not show respect to the breed (because currently my various colors and/or various qualities breed together.)
Once again, thank you for taking the time to explain what "type" means, much appreciated.

No worries. I read here to learn. Everyone has to start somewhere and this is a good place to learn. This is a friendly thread with so very helpful and kind folks that generously share their considerable experience.
You picked a good breed for pretty birds with personality to match. They are terribly addicting.