Cochin Thread!!!

[Coopa Cabana]

The Crele color is no more a "project" color than the GL, SL, Birchen or any of the rest of the lesser know varieties. If you check the feathersite.com you will find many rare varieties on there and a lot of them are well known and commonly bred in the U.K. The Crele color is one of those colors, it is accepted, exhibited and widely bred there.

This is definitely one of those discussions/controversies that is here to stay. As someone whose breeding program is focused on one of the lesser Varieties - Golden Laced (Bantams), I am also guilty of dabbling in Mille Fleur, and have a small Blue Laced Red project. So I guess I can see the many different sides of the issue. But I think we all need to keep in mind the correct status of the different "projects".

The below examples refer to Bantam Cochins only:

1) A Variety is ABA recognized; the Breed also accepts the Variety (i.e. Black, White, Mottled, Brown Red, Golden Laced, etc)

2) A Variety is ABA recognized; the Breed does NOT accept the Variety (i.e. Mille Fleur, Self-Blue, Barred as in Crele, etc)
>There is a written ABA standard for the color to follow when breeding/showing these Varieties, and seeking Breed recognition.

3) A Variety that is NOT ABA recognized, but has a confirmed, definitive genetic makeup, and is often recognized outside the U.S.
(i.e. Tolbunt, etc)

4) A color is NOT ABA recognized (i.e. Calico, Purple Polka Dot, etc)
>There is NO written ABA standard for the color to follow when breeding/showing these Varieties, nor for seeking Breed recognition.

Personally, I don't have any issues with breeding programs that fall into #2 above, as long as they are familiar with the proper ABA written standard for the particular Variety, and their breeding programs have the proper Variety standard as their goal.

#4 is my pet peeve. Breeders start throwing colors together just to see what happens, or have unexpected outcomes from attempting to come up with something different, and simply come up with a name for the offspring that is cute and suits their personal fancy.

There is a rainbow of beautiful Cochins colors out there . . . EVERYONE should have at least one of the lesser accepted Varieties in their breeding programs so we don't lose them forever. Check these out: http://www.cochinsint.com/variety-photos.html

(P.S. - If you are looking for the Variety "Crele" in your ABA Standard, it is not listed under "Crele" - it is listed under "Barred as in Crele".)

 

[wildwoodcochins]

This is definitely one of those discussions/controversies that is here to stay. As someone whose breeding program is focused on one of the lesser Varieties - Golden Laced (Bantams), I am also guilty of dabbling in Mille Fleur, and have a small Blue Laced Red project. So I guess I can see the many different sides of the issue. But I think we all need to keep in mind the correct status of the different "projects".

The below examples refer to Bantam Cochins only:

1) A Variety is ABA recognized; the Breed also accepts the Variety (i.e. Black, White, Mottled, Brown Red, Golden Laced, etc)

2) A Variety is ABA recognized; the Breed does NOT accept the Variety (i.e. Mille Fleur, Self-Blue, Barred as in Crele, etc)
>There is a written ABA standard for the color to follow when breeding/showing these Varieties, and seeking Breed recognition.

3) A Variety that is NOT ABA recognized, but has a confirmed, definitive genetic makeup, and is often recognized outside the U.S.
(i.e. Tolbunt, etc)

4) A color is NOT ABA recognized (i.e. Calico, Purple Polka Dot, etc)
>There is NO written ABA standard for the color to follow when breeding/showing these Varieties, nor for seeking Breed recognition.

Personally, I don't have any issues with breeding programs that fall into #2 above, as long as they are familiar with the proper ABA written standard for the particular Variety, and their breeding programs have the proper Variety standard as their goal.

#4 is my pet peeve. Breeders start throwing colors together just to see what happens, or have unexpected outcomes from attempting to come up with something different, and simply come up with a name for the offspring that is cute and suits their personal fancy.

There is a rainbow of beautiful Cochins colors out there . . . EVERYONE should have at least one of the lesser accepted Varieties in their breeding programs so we don't lose them forever. Check these out: http://www.cochinsint.com/variety-photos.html

(P.S. - If you are looking for the Variety "Crele" in your ABA Standard, it is not listed under "Crele" - it is listed under "Barred as in Crele".)

Well said Gail~ I especially agree with your pet peeve #4: while I agree that breeders should be able to attempt any "project" breed; I disagree that someone should just start throwing birds together to "see" what they get. I think if a breeder has a specific goal in mind and they spend their time and money to acheive that goal, I don't see a problem with that. I have seen birds from the UK that are drop dead gorgeous, recognized breeds that we don't have here in the US, I would absolutely love to see chocolates here someday. I was actually trying to get information at one point on trying to start a project on chocolates but when I posted the question on CI, I was promptly chewed out by a member and just let it go at that. I don't understand why some breeders are so against these new projects?

 

[wildwoodcochins]

Twyla, I had several cockerels that displayed this color pattern last year. I thought the same thing about several of them, that they looked like blue Birchens, but in fact what was going on was a match up between a particular hen and rooster somehow didn't provide the genetics to fully extend the Black or Blue color over the entire body of the birds. They were dead gorgeous, but of course they were of no use to anyone unless they just wanted yard art. They eventually ended up on the farm of a 4 H adviser, she loved them, thank goodness. Needless to say, I didn't repeat that breeding.

Thanks Nancy, guess I need to look for a new home for him, a little hard for him to be "yard art" though, poor guy.

 

[mama2my4]

My Mille Fleurs are looking good. Can't wait to hatch out chicks from these birds.

What BEAUTIFUL birds!!!

 

[County Boy]

i'M SAYING THAT HE IS A DARK BRAHMA. THAT'S GOING BY THE COMD ANDE THE COLOR IS VERY CLOSE TO DARK.

 

[ki4got]

Quote:

Well said Gail~ I especially agree with your pet peeve #4: while I agree that breeders should be able to attempt any "project" breed; I disagree that someone should just start throwing birds together to "see" what they get. I think if a breeder has a specific goal in mind and they spend their time and money to acheive that goal, I don't see a problem with that. I have seen birds from the UK that are drop dead gorgeous, recognized breeds that we don't have here in the US, I would absolutely love to see chocolates here someday. I was actually trying to get information at one point on trying to start a project on chocolates but when I posted the question on CI, I was promptly chewed out by a member and just let it go at that. I don't understand why some breeders are so against these new projects?

I agree myself, that when you want to mix n match for a 'project' breed, it still helps to have a good solid line of the basics that went into making it, so you have something to go back to if needed, whether it's for type or color intensity, or whatever.

my primary focus is on the Dorking, and while i will be working primarily with 3 colors (silver grey, red and colored) I'm also intrigued with genetics and plan some test crossings to see what colors actually make up the genetics of these magnificent birds. but i'm not trying to 'create' any specific color, just want to know all i can about the breed and it's genetic makeup, to see what is involved and possibly improve on the colored line since there seems to be so much variation in the breed, most of which does not conform to what the standard calls for IMO. (color wise). my primary goal is to improve the physical characteristics, of the pure color lines though.

cochins are a passion i've had since i was introduced to the breed by my advisor at UMaine, Bob Hawes (who no longer breeds cochins unfortunately). I have some awesome typey blacks, split lavenders (from the same black line), silver laced, not quite as typey but still awesome, and one mottled (i think) chick, a calico roo, and a red hen who will be going with the calico (and the chick if it's a pullet). the blacks, lavenders and silver laced will be my primary focus for this breed tho, and the calico is the 'eye candy'. love to find a girl for him that matches, but it's not a priority right now.

 

[mibirder]

Regarding the "new colors" discussion.

As a biologist (retired), its more about the genetics rather than just the coloration. Much of what's known about color genetics has come out of European genetics projects that are focused on the color genes rather than on standard colors. In fact, many times, there is some disregard for the breeds involved in crosses as long as the specific genes are being used to understand how the color is being produced. Many of these "mutts" provide critical understanding for breed and variety specific breeding down the road.

The downside is when folks just put together any combinations to see what they get rather than select good stock, predict what they should get, and "check" their prediction with the breeding rather than the other way around. Creating a "new color" should be more like making a cake rather than blind mixing. Perfecting the cake (or color) comes from tweaking the recipe, baking lots of cakes, and eating lots of less perfect cakes until you get it right!

 

[wildwoodcochins]

Regarding the "new colors" discussion.

As a biologist (retired), its more about the genetics rather than just the coloration. Much of what's known about color genetics has come out of European genetics projects that are focused on the color genes rather than on standard colors. In fact, many times, there is some disregard for the breeds involved in crosses as long as the specific genes are being used to understand how the color is being produced. Many of these "mutts" provide critical understanding for breed and variety specific breeding down the road.

The downside is when folks just put together any combinations to see what they get rather than select good stock, predict what they should get, and "check" their prediction with the breeding rather than the other way around. Creating a "new color" should be more like making a cake rather than blind mixing. Perfecting the cake (or color) comes from tweaking the recipe, baking lots of cakes, and eating lots of less perfect cakes until you get it right!

 

[bantam cochin connoisseur]

The color I have been working on for the past three years is Crele. These birds are partridge and barred. I read in a genetics book that partridge x barred would make Crele. I will leave it to the experts to discount the genetics of these birds. The fact is I have thoroughly enjoyed this project and the eye candy I am able to view every day. I enjoy cochins, that is all there is to it.

I have been working on this color for several years now. This is where I am with the project right now. I started with very good quality cochins which I hope shows through in the pictures of the offspring below. I was considering selling a few eggs from these birds. If I tried to sell a few eggs from these birds, would anyone be interested? Just curious. BTW no birds to sell just eggs.

 

[Coopa Cabana]

As far as I know, Bob Hawes is still breeding (and I believe showing) his beautiful Buff Bantam Cochins.