Colloncas, Huastecs, & Quechuas

[SparkyCrows]

Or Silkies could have been transported to Central America by the Chinese in the 1400's during a period immense trading and sailing. Because the faction backing the trading fell out of power after the death of Zheng He (the admiral of the treasure ships) China retreated into a xenophobic pattern and walled themselves off. They also destroyed many of the records of what Zheng He did. It is known that he made 7 great voyages in the Indian Ocean and that he reached Africa. But it is possible that is not all because so much of the information on his voyages were destroyed.

This is a decent write up about a bit of research that came out in March. The journalist did a great job of conveying the findings AND getting feedback from previous researchers who found evidence Pre-Columbian contact.... Spoiler Alert - they disagree
When Did Chickens Cross The Pacific Ocean? DNA Shows ‘No Evidence’ Of Pre-Columbian Contact
According to a new study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, ancient Polynesian chickens might not have migrated to South America as some scientists believe. Researchers came to their conclusion after comparing mitochondrial DNA taken from chicken bones from archeological sites in several Pacific islands with DNA taken from 122 feathers from modern chickens in the SouthPacific.
"We were able to re-examine bones used in previous studies that had linked ancient Pacific and South American chickens, suggesting early human contact, and found that some of the results were contaminated with modern chicken DNA, which occurs at trace levels in many laboratory components," Professor Alan Cooper of the University of Adelaide's Australian Centre for Ancient DNA said in a statement. "We were able to show that the ancient chicken DNA provided no evidence of any pre-Columbian contact between these areas."
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My favorite part of the whole affair is Kermit's response. Clearly the wrong birds were sampled!

 

[Penny Hen]

This is a decent write up about a bit of research that came out in March. The journalist did a great job of conveying the findings AND getting feedback from previous researchers who found evidence Pre-Columbian contact.... Spoiler Alert - they disagree
When Did Chickens Cross The Pacific Ocean? DNA Shows ‘No Evidence’ Of Pre-Columbian Contact

According to a new study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, ancient Polynesian chickens might not have migrated to South America as some scientists believe. Researchers came to their conclusion after comparing mitochondrial DNA taken from chicken bones from archeological sites in several Pacific islands with DNA taken from 122 feathers from modern chickens in the SouthPacific.
"We were able to re-examine bones used in previous studies that had linked ancient Pacific and South American chickens, suggesting early human contact, and found that some of the results were contaminated with modern chicken DNA, which occurs at trace levels in many laboratory components," Professor Alan Cooper of the University of Adelaide's Australian Centre for Ancient DNA said in a statement. "We were able to show that the ancient chicken DNA provided no evidence of any pre-Columbian contact between these areas."
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My favorite part of the whole affair is Kermit's response. Clearly the wrong birds were sampled!

Or the Silkies/other oriental chickens could have come in the 1800's when many Japanese moved to Central and South America.

 

[SparkyCrows]

Or the Silkies/other oriental chickens could have come in the 1800's when many Japanese moved to Central and South America.

We tend to focus on the west side of the continent and the Andes. I haven't looked hard at Brazil and the Amazon. It seems like the geography could have really limited east - west interactions. None the less, I want to know more As I recall, the Japanese colonies didn't form until the early 1900's. BUT, there is the ugly matter of slavery. I see a lot more literature about native African chickens than South American chickens. It seems reasonable that some west African birds could have ended up in Brazil.

In any case, South America really became Europe's playground in the 1500's. European influences on the chickens in South America are very old. Even if we say there weren't any chickens in South America before the Europeans, that's still a long while for birds to have been reshaped by the natives and for feral chickens themselves adapted to the new surroundings.

 

[SparkyCrows]

I started seeing this color combintio in my 2013 hatch - deep red and blue with white tips. Has anyone else seen this yet? I think it must be what's under the buff diluters in the "Nikkei / Snowy Mapuche" lineage.

 

[ChooksChick]

I'm finally getting around to reading all of this, and I have to state a few things.

I stopped being verbal about the SA lines and even stopped advertizing them when I felt like sooooo very much smoke had been blown up my skirt. Sparky got all of her birds from my lines, and I got them from several locations, all arranged by one guy. She and I have worked for years to clear this up in our own minds.

I worked closely with him on a project that was months of research and found inconsistency after inconsistency, to the point where I felt like he has a way of speaking with great articulation and confidence, while the knowledge itself may be lacking. I found I couldn't follow anything he told me about my birds back beyond him as the source, and as such, felt I couldn't give anyone else any information, as I had no faith in the accuracy of what I'd been told, and in fact, I'd found many incorrect statements in the midst. Example: Kiri Kiri is not a breed or type. Kikiriki IS a breed. Such a knowledgeable and experienced curator who gives great bundles of info ought to know the real name.

I am in fact intrigued by the information I've found and continue to keep the birds I have, however I'm unable to give any information on them. I got some from Taft Hill. I got some from Plymouth Colony. I got some from some other colony...who knows what they are?? Yashar got his from that guy and has worked with them based on that guy's words.

I like them and I group them according to my own desires and selections. I sell them to those who inquire. They are in no way Quechuas, Colloncas or Huastecs. These breeds don't really exist in the way that they have been presented. I feel Yashar and I (and others who have sold based on what we've been told) have been mislead. Further, the mistruths have been capitalized on our reputations and credibility. I stopped contributing to the charade as soon as I understood what was happening. I wish I'd publicly withdrawn all of my statements, since they were based on someone else's facade. I am happy to sell these birds/eggs to those who adore them for the wild, interesting anomalies they are- and when I do, I am clear that I believe them to be South American composites approximating the Copetona type. That's as much as I will claim.

There it is...hope I don't stir anything up by this, but instead help put some of it to rest.

 

[tbishop]

So we either go by your opinion or the person you won't name's opinion? Your argument is no more based in fact than what you are claiming you were told. It sure seems more like a personal problem than a factually based issue. How bout we just don't talk about it until something documented is presented?

 

[enola]

We need to change the conversation to a more enjoyable mode. I do not want moderators to close this thread. Once it is closed, another thread on this subject cannot be started.....

 

[tbishop]

I'll stop. Sorry for the problem.

 

[enola]

There is a lot of stuff on this thread that is debatable......

There is also some good reading on this thread. Maybe further discussion on some of "these theories" could be taken to pm's and when the "sources" have been thoroughly researched and proven, then the results can be posted on the thread.

I didn't intend to jump on anyone. I just don't want this thread shut down. Later this fall I would like some blue eggs from Colloconas to hatch. I can't brag to you guys if this thread is gone.

 

[Yashar]

Wow! This is quite the climax of a simple "Buy ~ Sell ~ Trade" Thread.

@ChooksChick, I'm just getting on here also after a good few weeks and am getting current with the conversation...

@Sparky, In all honesty, I do appreciate your desire for clarity in what is perpetuated. And I totally understand what you are getting at.

@Everyone, I have been personal friends with Kermit/Resolution (and friends of his friends) for going back a number of years. I couldn't tell you how many hours we have sat around talking about chickens and many other topics (that usually come back around to chickens [or peafowl]). Just giving a little background...

I do know that most of the South American birds discussed here and on similar threads have been "infused," "out-crossed," "back-crossed," and "composited." That is not a secret. As far as I can tell, that was a matter of genetic necessity.

What I don't doubt is that a fair amount of the genetics is indeed from the claimed regions. And I truly believe that, as one of the main passions of genetic preservation, Kermit is striving to keep those genetics alive. But I suppose that could all be made up...

I certainly have learned to use terms like "breed" cautiously. For I do not want to make false claims. I do think there has been a measure of "art" involved. And have come to realize the looseness in what I at one time considered to be firm standards.

For example, I would think to cull any Huastec that came out with white skin. The standard: Black Skin. But I would say to Kermit, "I'm culling all the white skinned chicks this week." And he would say, "Oh My! But there are so many important genetics there!"

You can see the good heart can't you? But what do you do with all those chicks? And what do you call them? Hmm...

I'm not really too concerned with being right. Perhaps I'm wrong... When I really come to realize this reality, I won't try to hold on. I promise...

I totally understand what ChooksChick said a few posts ago. But, my problem is that I really like Kermit and have a hard time disregarding him. But, I've learned to take much things with a grain of salt.

Also, I'm not really going to be spending much time on the computer finding out the "truth." I have a bakery to run and chickens and goats to take care of (Oh yeah, and my 2 beautiful boys [2 & 4] and wonderful wife). But, I do indeed care about the truth. Keep it coming. But Keep it considerate. I also would not want this thread to get shut down.

Please be aware: I'm not in the realm of defending anything. If my birds are debunked, then I have some really nice debunked birds!

So,

To the best of my knowledge I will be offering Ponape chicks on an auction here on BYC. (I'll be posting shortly) And a few weeks later Colloncas chicks. And then after a few eggs of the same. Please stay tuned to my future threads.
My main short term goal: A new roll-out nest! Yes!

All the best,
Yashar