Colloncas, Huastecs, & Quechuas

[MA Mama]

Why is anyone even saying if they are pure or from SA or not if you do not believe they are do not waste your time on them if you like them raise them. They are chickens I do not think it is a world changing answer I like them and I think Yashar is honest in what he says I will raise them and buy them because I like them.

Yahsar is very honest. Very. And I totally agree, if you like them, raise them. I do.

 

[MA Mama]

That was what I was guessing. That is one of the lovely things about our level of science now. DNA doesn't make a mistake or lie. It is what it is.

Now I am very new to exploring the South Am breeds. I have read Kermit's (Resolution) thread. It is one persons view of South America. I was a propaganda analyst for the Army. There are some parts of his thread which if applying my skills of determining the validity of the information need some other sources to confirm them. Not that they are grossly wrong just that they give me a feeling of someone over summarizing a subject and leaving out key details. I have read another article published (a science site that I will have to re-look up) after his thread was written that confirms his information on the migration of people and chickens in the South Pacific. It added the information that a virus is what enabled the Bekisar roos to cross with the Bantam Basket hens and gave the eggs the blue color. This article got the chickens to South America but didn't seem to study what happened to them in the last 150 years. They were focused on using the chickens to track the human migrations from Southeast Asia across the South Pacific to South America.

Could be that another study has picked that up from there but it is in one of these pay-for-view sites. I have been too broke these past 10 years to indulge in paying for science studies. Not that they don't deserve to be funded. I just haven't had the spare cash to indulge myself. I have had to rely on information that was splashy enough to make it to a free journal site. And what you usually get there is a simplified summary. If you are doing deep research for the purpose of forming new and cutting edge theories you need the full articles with all the details.

There's no doubt that Kermits writings about the migration of chickens is spot on. It's the origins of several of the varieties he named that are up for debate.

 

[Penny Hen]

There's no doubt that Kermits writings about the migration of chickens is spot on. It's the origins of several of the varieties he named that are up for debate.

Well did you ever play the game Grapevine, where you whispered something into one persons ear and then they repeat the message whispered into the next persons ear? By the time you go 5 to 10 people the message mutates beyond recognition. That was why the pre-litterate peoples the world over used rhymes and song to record important knowledge because those are harder to distort accidentally. (History if full of deliberate distortions and it didn't start when we could write.)

His information of the sources of these breeds may have crossed enough people and a language translation losing it's accuracy. That is why DNA testing would be so valuable to these breeds.

 

[MA Mama]

Well did you ever play the game Grapevine, where you whispered something into one persons ear and then they repeat the message whispered into the next persons ear? By the time you go 5 to 10 people the message mutates beyond recognition. That was why the pre-litterate peoples the world over used rhymes and song to record important knowledge because those are harder to distort accidentally. (History if full of deliberate distortions and it didn't start when we could write.)

His information of the sources of these breeds may have crossed enough people and a language translation losing it's accuracy. That is why DNA testing would be so valuable to these breeds.

There are some studies using DNA... but they discuss migration to SA. What I want to know is if MY birds came from SA within a few generations ago, as I have been told. I *think* that the addition of commercial-ly type chickens to SA in the last 100 years would make it impossible for DNA to tell me this. I *think* it would only be possible if the SA birds had remained in a bubble. Thoughts?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/13/1320412111.abstract

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0039171

 

[Penny Hen]

There are some studies using DNA... but they discuss migration to SA. What I want to know is if MY birds came from SA within a few generations ago, as I have been told. I *think* that the addition of commercial-ly type chickens to SA in the last 100 years would make it impossible for DNA to tell me this. I *think* it would only be possible if the SA birds had remained in a bubble. Thoughts?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/13/1320412111.abstract

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0039171

Some 20 years ago there was an article in National Geographic about a high mountain village in Peru who annually rebuilt their swinging rope bridge across this gorge. When interviewed the village elders explained that there village had been ordered to maintain this bridge back before the 1500's (they named the reign of a pre-European contact Emperor) and that they had been doing it every year since. These people may have a pocket of the most pure ancient chicken genes still available. Of course that was 20 years ago but still there may be pockets left.

As for the articles the last one was very interesting. It definitively explained the challenge that the traditional husbandry of chickens gives tracking them with DNA. That being that because of their small size and utility (laying eggs) the females weren't anchored to a geographic area like happens in larger livestock. They were put in baskets/cages and taken with people as they traveled as food source and watchdogs. Much side research is necessary to give meaning to the DNA results. You have to look at DNA from other farm animals (and rats) from the same time period and evidence of trading and commerce.

It would be nice for us regular chicken folks if they could have attached familiar names to the Haploid groups. If I have read it right, the E-group originated in Thailand but spread west until it ended up in Spain courtesty of the trading Phoencians. But he E-group also went east too so it makes it hard to to tell the difference when it looks as if they were recombined when the Spanish brought some of hte E group from Spain with them.

 

[SparkyCrows]

There are some studies using DNA... but they discuss migration to SA. What I want to know is if MY birds came from SA within a few generations ago, as I have been told. I *think* that the addition of commercial-ly type chickens to SA in the last 100 years would make it impossible for DNA to tell me this. I *think* it would only be possible if the SA birds had remained in a bubble. Thoughts?

That's a really good point. I initially had an Indiana Jones story in my mind whereby Kermit's Dutch collector from Hawaii travels into the vast remote of South America. Departing from known civilization, compass and walking stick in hand he knows he's risking certain death (but hey, he's got on sturdy shoes and a hat so what could go wrong?). He returns months later, clothes tattered, eyes listing a bit from the hallucinogenics endured while gaining the trust of toothless shamans, and a basket made of rain forest vines slung on his back. As he approaches you hear a strangely melodic, laughter like crowing and see that he holds in his arms chickens of the most amazing array of colors ever imagined. A package of eggs all different shapes and colors is tucked away under his hat. Tatooed on the his right leg is a map and on his left are the names of the kinds of chickens he's collected. He's completely beyond human exhaustion but just before falling into a never ending coma he whispers "Give my birds to Kermit".

Over time my vision evolved to an old guy enjoying his last few years living in rural Hawaii. One night there's a party and woozy from the exotic ambiance he tells his cranky-pants neighbor that the crowing rooster is actually blah blah blah. The cranky neighbor leans into the story so the old guy keeps talking because he figures maybe the neighbor won't complain so much.... Then the old guy dies but the story sticks and the birds get packed up and pawned off who ever would agree to care for them. How they get to the mainland I don't know.

However, now I think perhaps somebody somewhere got some birds for all the wrong reasons and they got mixed in with birds being kept for socially inappropriate reasons. Who knows. It doesn't take more than a few generations for a lineage to completely change appearances, especially if the initial few genetic contributors have buff feathering and duplex combs. That's largely why I've become so intrigued with egg shell traits - it takes longer for the gene combinations to drift enough to no longer be able to recognize a lineage based on what the eggs look like.

OK - back on task - how long would it take me to decide to use a chicken for a ritual instead of chasing some spry little wild bird up into the cloud forests? Not very long if chasing the wild bird meant getting in the cross hairs of whatever warfare was underway. It's been one thing after another after another there for so long that it seems like breeding the chickens to meet a specific ritual need would just make good security sense. Why risk not being able to do the ritual when you can have your bird and eat it too..... (Oh, my.)

Still, it doesn't solve the basic stumbling block that there was no Indiana Jones of South American poultry. Maybe there was a Dutch tourist who bought some birds at a live market and took them home to Hawaii. But, if the chickens in South America don't predate the Europeans, then the primal mystique of the story if over for me. What we're left with are some birds that we think are fascinating and can generally group based on phenotype but really the only reliable thing they have in common is with Kermit.

If genetic testing was done what would you be looking for &/or what would you compare it to?

 

[SparkyCrows]

Yahsar is very honest. Very. And I totally agree, if you like them, raise them. I do.

Those are some interesting links. Kind of think evidence, though, don't you think? I don't think you've supported your idea that the US breeders are deceitful or ignorant about the breeds, but it is interesting.

What I was aiming for was to say there are people in South America with chickens different from what we have here AND they seem to be interested in keeping them going.

Why is anyone even saying if they are pure or from SA or not if you do not believe they are do not waste your time on them if you like them raise them. They are chickens I do not think it is a world changing answer I like them and I think Yashar is honest in what he says I will raise them and buy them because I like them.

Of course I will keep raising them and selling them but I've never been as vested in them for the sake of stewardship as I have with breeding for the sake of learning. I think they shouldn't be sold as something they aren't - especially if that single point of commonality is a historical bit of information instead of a specific phenotype. The land race concept almost works except South America is so diverse and fragmented and I think of a land race as being a set of traits that have been selected for over time so that the animals are particularly well suited for a particular environment.

The only thing I feel like I can reasonably do based on my personal understanding of the situation is NOT USE TERMINOLOGY INDICATING THEY ARE PART OF A STEWARDSHIP FLOCK. I feel it's fair to say they've got unusual genetic combinations and that having them is a means of diversifying a gene pool. It's fair to say they behave differently than typical chickens; it's fair to explain sets of valuable traits relative to particular environmental settings. It's not fair to say these birds are a direct lineage from anything in particular. Perhaps they should be described as re-construction projects? That puts us back to square one because we can't say what we're reconstructing.

 

[enola]

Sparky crows,

Ok, after reading through your posts, I have to ask just what you are basing your statements on. You appear to be accusing someone or maybe all of us of something, i am not even sure what.

Maybe I missed something that someone said, or said they did. I haven't seen where anyone here is misrepresenting the different breeds of chickens discussed here on this thread.

Like I said , I may have missed something. Someone please fill me in if I did......

 

[tbishop]

What I was aiming for was to say there are people in South America with chickens different from what we have here AND they seem to be interested in keeping them going.

You got all that by looking at pictures on Flickr?

 

[SparkyCrows]

You got all that by looking at pictures on Flickr?

Yeah, I know, right? It's amazing what you can find if you're tenacious enough. You just have to have the time to follow leads once you finally find them. From the picture of the Aymara shaman I went to reading about history of their tribe. I used the citations from the history to find people who had used the same references in their research. I just kept working my way through the web until I found people actually working on livestock preservation.


There's 2 years of web research time between the old man and the old woman. There was a year of on again / off again frustration before coming to the idea of just going through picture after picture on flickr. This wasn't out of any kind of malice but because I knew these breeds had no hope of surviving if there wasn't someone closer to the source ready and able to verify their existence.

Sparky crows,

Ok, after reading through your posts, I have to ask just what you are basing your statements on. You appear to be accusing someone or maybe all of us of something, i am not even sure what.

Maybe I missed something that someone said, or said they did. I haven't seen where anyone here is misrepresenting the different breeds of chickens discussed here on this thread.

Like I said , I may have missed something. Someone please fill me in if I did......

Isn't the whole premise that these particular lineages birds came from carefully cultivated flocks handed down generation after generation and our efforts will help protect them for future generations?

I'm saying that after 3 years of searching I haven't found anything to support that premise. What I did find is people actually in South America recognizing that they have animals intrinsically tied to their cultural identity. These are the preservationists in the trenches and we need to be looking to them for guidance. They've identified some broad categories based on what the indigenous people actually call their birds. There have been a few smaller studies actually going out and taking measurements and recording unique features but that was in Columbia and another in Mexico. However, the variables being measured seemed super basic to me - like crested, non-crested, weight, color, a few more.

If I made a spreadsheet with the parameters they measured would people be willing to add to it? It'd be a way to start collectively pooling info in an organized manner.