Color genetics thread.

[jessicaagross]

Lacing is a result of several separate genes with a pair being 'linked'(like pea and O blue egg gene).

The main genes for lacing are: Pg, Ml, Co, Db.. Pattern, Melanotic, Columbian, Dark brown(down).

Most laced are either on ER(Birchen) or eb(Dark brown/partridge). Wyandottes are on eb, that is why they have the black tails.... Sebrights, Polish are on ER- that is why they have laced tails.

As for black chickens, there is not a single gene that makes them solid black. Most have one of either main crow winged(no triangle of color on the secondaries) genes- E- Extended black or ER- Birchen. E makes them 'blacker' on average but they still leak some color on the hackles at the least with Birchen usually having a little more color- on hackles, saddle plus "lacing" on the neck/breast(it is not the same lacing as above though!). So a solid black chicken are actually E or ER with 'helper genes' than turn them even blacker by melanizing the colored areas.

Both E and ER are dominant over duckwinged colors(red duckwing, dark brown, wheaten, partridge...)

That is why if you cross a black chicken with a colored chicken, the crosses come out mostly black but with variable color leaking. The black is 'dominant' but since the cross is not pure for all those 'black helper genes' so the color bleeds through.... this is why black sexlinks are so generally so similar, they are a RIR over barred rocks(black chicken with barring added)

So if you cross a black with a gold laced wyandotte, the result is usually mostly black with some color leaking, because this is really a dark brown crossed with a black

Okay thank you! That is kind of what I thought, but I wasn't sure. I know a small amount from horses, but they really only have 3-4 solid colors, so it makes it easier. chickens have all of these different things going on.

Is there a color that generally overpowers or masks other colors? With my Arabians (in really simpleton terms, forgive me) grey is dominant and one of the "strongest" colors because it causes the any other color to depigment as they age. And you have a really high chance of grey even if only one parent is grey. So do chickens have any colors like that?

Thanks for your help!

 

[draye]

This really only applies to birds with laced tails, like sebrights and polish. They are birchen, one of the main  genes used in making solid blacks.

Laced Wyandottes are not black at all.  If you removed all their lacing genes, they would be a plain partridge color.   For reasons related to this, they cannot get laced tails.

Thanks. I wasn't sure really.

 

[Kev]

Okay thank you! That is kind of what I thought, but I wasn't sure. I know a small amount from horses, but they really only have 3-4 solid colors, so it makes it easier. chickens have all of these different things going on.

Is there a color that generally overpowers or masks other colors? With my Arabians (in really simpleton terms, forgive me) grey is dominant and one of the "strongest" colors because it causes the any other color to depigment as they age. And you have a really high chance of grey even if only one parent is grey. So do chickens have any colors like that?

Thanks for your help!

That will help in getting a handle on chicken genetics! The problem is while chickens have only a few "base colors", they have hundreds of different color and pattern genes making the possibilities being infinite.

Imagine having a grey horse. Now imagine there is a gene that affects how the grey color is patterned.. imagine a gene that clears it from the main body and restricts it to the extremities- now you have a white bodied horse with a grey face, legs, tail. This is what the Columbian(Co) gene does in chickens- buff and light brahmas are a classic example. It is also dominant, like grey is.

Another gene tells the grey coat to have a pattern, this is hard one to compare as chickens have feathers and horses have a simple hair.. maybe comparatively they would look grizzled or frosty instead of being even, solid grey. This is what Pg(Pattern) gene does.

So that's one color- Grey, altered by two pattern genes to make seemingly very different colors. Now imagine if there are 100s... 200s... of those kind of patterning/color genes. So at first it seems overwhelming but once you get a handle it gets much easier.

Chickens have a few 'base' genes.. without any extra mutant genes, they would be in order of dominance: E- extended black(mostly black, with usually color limited to hackles and wing bow), ER- Birchen, eWh- wheaten, e+ - the wild type gene, red duckwing and finally eb- dark brown, partridge.

All the usual and common chicken colors and patterns are based on the above few genes.

As for a dominant color, there isn't really one, as so many colors are really combinations of different genes. It would be best to let this concept go and instead go along more like one on one comparsions.

 

[Kev]

Thanks. I wasn't sure really.

No problem , you were partly correct.

 

[draye]

No problem , you were partly correct.  

Still learning myself.

 

[jessicaagross]

That will help in getting a handle on chicken genetics! The problem is while chickens have only a few "base colors", they have hundreds of different color and pattern genes making the possibilities being infinite.

Imagine having a grey horse. Now imagine there is a gene that affects how the grey color is patterned.. imagine a gene that clears it from the main body and restricts it to the extremities- now you have a white bodied horse with a grey face, legs, tail. This is what the Columbian(Co) gene does in chickens- buff and light brahmas are a classic example. It is also dominant, like grey is.

Another gene tells the grey coat to have a pattern, this is hard one to compare as chickens have feathers and horses have a simple hair.. maybe comparatively they would look grizzled or frosty instead of being even, solid grey. This is what Pg(Pattern) gene does.

So that's one color- Grey, altered by two pattern genes to make seemingly very different colors. Now imagine if there are 100s... 200s... of those kind of patterning/color genes. So at first it seems overwhelming but once you get a handle it gets much easier.

Chickens have a few 'base' genes.. without any extra mutant genes, they would be in order of dominance: E- extended black(mostly black, with usually color limited to hackles and wing bow), ER- Birchen, eWh- wheaten, e+ - the wild type gene, red duckwing and finally eb- dark brown, partridge.

All the usual and common chicken colors and patterns are based on the above few genes.

As for a dominant color, there isn't really one, as so many colors are really combinations of different genes. It would be best to let this concept go and instead go along more like one on one comparsions.

Well when you put it that way!!!... it seems so simple?

BLAH! LOL You did help it make some sense for me though. It's just going to take some time to get a handle on it. I'm going to need a book or two to read. There is a thread for genetic books on here isn't there? The more I get into poultry the more my brain hurts

 

[Kev]

Well when you put it that way!!!... it seems so simple?

BLAH! LOL You did help it make some sense for me though. It's just going to take some time to get a handle on it. I'm going to need a book or two to read. There is a thread for genetic books on here isn't there? The more I get into poultry the more my brain hurts

Oh trust me, it took more than one reading for me to grasp it, even after I'd already had years experience with pigeons chickens and peafowl..

You happened to pick a fairly complex genetics example early on, asking about black crossed with laced, Seems so simple a question... ha!

Another seemingly easy but deceptively complex question is to ask what happens with crossing white with black.. (theres two main ways of getting a white chicken....)

good place to start:

http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

 

[Kev]

Still learning myself.

Me too, me too..

 

[jessicaagross]

Oh trust me, it took more than one reading for me to grasp it, even after I'd already had years experience with pigeons chickens and peafowl..

You happened to pick a fairly complex genetics example early on, asking about black crossed with laced, Seems so simple a question... ha!

Another seemingly easy but deceptively complex question is to ask what happens with crossing white with black.. (theres two main ways of getting a white chicken....)

good place to start:

http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

Thanks for the link! I'll look into it when I get home.

To my eye black can't be anything other than simple, so it's hard to process that black isn't just some kind of easy color. But I guess wild fowl weren't black or white were they. So it makes sense that it would be more complex.

At the risk of making my head hurt, what does happen when you cross white with black?

 

[Kev]

Thanks for the link! I'll look into it when I get home.

To my eye black can't be anything other than simple, so it's hard to process that black isn't just some kind of easy color. But I guess wild fowl weren't black or white were they. So it makes sense that it would be more complex.

At the risk of making my head hurt, what does happen when you cross white with black?

Okay I did ask for that.... lol

Simple answer:

Dominant white x black= white, some with a few random black feathers.

Recessive white x black, could be either solid black, black with leakage... or barred... barring is often used in whites to help clear the legs to solid yellow or white.

This is also a good example of don't be fooled into thinking one color= one gene especially in chickens.

Other headache inducing examples:

Barred rocks are solid black chickens with the barring gene added.

Blue is a solid black chicken with the blue gene added.

Lavender is " " " "

The only difference between buff and light brahmas are gold and silver, respectively.

Solid black, solid blue, solid lavenders are all either gold or silver. You just can't tell unless they leak or if you cross them to something that will let the color show in the offspring.

A common issue you will encounter in the poultry hobby is the really bad habit of giving the same name to completely different genetics... OR giving the same genetics totally different names.