Henk69
Crowing
I don't see any reason why rec.white would help, sorry. What is sure though is that you would get 25% rec.whites in the end with no green sheen...
Color genetics thread.
- Thread starter redrooster99
- Start date
I don't see any reason why rec.white would help, sorry. What is sure though is that you would get 25% rec.whites in the end with no green sheen...
- Jan 6, 2013
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Thanks Henk69. That's what I figured.
- Thread starter
- #33
Could I get black chickens by mixing this cockeral
With this black hen.
These are not good pictures and if you need better ones I can get them later today.
And if I was to breed him to this one......
Could I get a white bird with black spots.
With this black hen.
These are not good pictures and if you need better ones I can get them later today.
And if I was to breed him to this one......
Could I get a white bird with black spots.
- Thread starter
- #34
I also need to get an updated pic of the roo because he is getting cream saddle feathers, and is more than likely not pure silver.
In my own search to understand poultry genetics, I stumbled onto this thread, and more importantly another thread that lists very helpful books:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/940222/books-and-siites-on-poultry-genetics
It looks as if there are some listed that would be a good beginning for those of us just starting out.
Lady of McCamley
Thank you for sharing this thread.
Multiple persons on this thread have asked about books...I posted this list in the BYC SOP section in this thread on the first page ( https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/939672/color-questions ) but will post some of it again, re-worked my reply with many additions and deletions) to fit this particular thread. Be warned that we here have our own ways of doing things and they happen to work for us.
Some of the MOST basics of colour genetics should be learned first before one may fully begin to start guessing what colour genetics are in play in our beloved birds...I consider it a waste of efforts to ask a question like "What is Partridge?" when the person querying is not going to understand the little/big letters used to explain what colour pattern PARTRIDGE is let alone references to genetic potentials, feather texture, particular feather markings, growth cycles and speeds, seasonal influences, age, feed requirements, environment, etc. A foundation is a good place to begin any research and then building on that gets easier and easier. You do not have to learn genetics but it certainly makes breeding birds alot more progressive IMHO.
It is of little to no help to someone that cannot identify the pluses and minuses of the pattern when looking at the birds if they don't know, say what the "Partridge" pattern/colour is in the first place. If after studying the words in the Standard of Perfection (SOP) and looking at photos from sanctioned shows of good representations of the breeds/varieties, you still do not GET what the words and images are describing...then YOU (not your birds--we here are advocates of biosecure protocols...but then many are not--our opinions since I cannot speak for others' opinions) may go to sanctioned shows and walk the aisles L00King at the birds in the Partridge variety. If possible, one may sometimes politely monopolize the sanctioned judge's time and have them points some things out...ask the show secretary if that is possible. Sometimes you can tug on the ear of the exhibitors and they will help you out. Be polite and courteous...sometimes just offering to buy the person a coffee breaks the ice and away you go to learning some valuable things. You do not have to blow your biosecure status to heck going to shows if you fully sanitize your vehicle (something as simple as disinfecting the tires works well) and yourself (wear washable clothes & disinfect your footwear, clean self up completely before going out to do your evening chores when you return home). You may attend shows safely and not bring diseases home!
My suggestion is to get yourself educated on your interpretation of a breed and the variety you have interest in...long, long before you ever bring birds home. Getting birds is the easy part...having the proper set up, preparing and educating yourself; these are the more difficult processes. How in tarnation do you know what is a good or bad bird if you have not done your homework...at HOME first?
Understanding that simple things like feather textures come into play in varieties...a Partridge Silkie looks very little like a Partridge Chantecler. Why...because to see the markings on a Parti feather; the texture of the feather HAS to be sorta firm and slow grown to view the crisp expression. A fast growing, softish feather exhibits a fuzzy wuzzy display of the pencillings. Study the birds...know and understand the terminology, get a copy of the Standard of Perfection and READ the words that describe what "pencilling" is--compare that to what a "lace" is compare that to "multiple lacings"...and so your lovely adventures begin in the pursuit of educating yourself to be a positive addition to the Fancy. Talk the talk, walk the walk...join in the fun with feathers!
Be wary as "hobby" names from country to country and breed to breed are used interchangeably. To speak the same language one must often use "genetic" terms to describe the correct version of the feather patterns & colours when attempting to breed the varieties. Sometimes hobby names mean the complete opposite in other places and within breeds. What seems to work best is to use the short forms for genetic colours like Pg, eb, s"+". So you know, the plus sign subscript ("+") simply means it is wild type. Most often we expect a bird is wild type with the addition of mutations. We usually only mention the MUTATIONS in conversation...keeps it more concise and simple...simple is WAY good. Not saying you have to have any genetic learning to breed up nice birds...before Mendel the oldtimers did jest fine without all the mumbo jumbo genetics BUT since we now have this avenue to use...why not use it. I find it very useful and easy.
Keep an open mind and be willing to adapt. When you begin to study colour genetics (any genetics indeed), you will find out that the next research paper you read blows what you thought to be the gospel all to heck! Be prepared to UNlearn certain things...LMBO
Colour genetics is as easy as you want it to be...and as complex too. Nobody insists you learn genetics but by and far, sure makes life easier if you invest in yourself and do get a handle on it. My opinion of course!
Choose one of the following publications to purchase and consider it a gift to yourself to further YOUR learning...an investment in yourself in a very sensible good place to start:
- Genetics of Chicken Colours, By Sigrid Van Dort, David Hancox. Copyright 1990, ISBN 978 90 6674 404 2
- Creative Poultry Breeding, By W.C. Carefoot, MSc, PhD. Copyright 1985, Published by Veronica Mayhew in 2005
- 21st Century Poultry Breeding, By Grant Brereton, Copyright 2008, ISBN 97809 47870 577
- An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl, By Brian Reeder, Copyright 2006, ISBN 1 4259 0421 1
I own copies of all of these authors' publications and each one has bonuses and things to teach you about colours in your birds. I have other books listed on my website at the bottom of each species pages...lots of books...a big library and a big investment to help ME become worthy to work with the birds.
Dr. Carefoot's book walks one thru the being a hobbiest to having a more scientist type mind. Sigrid's books are fabulous and is another stepping stone to go thru. Keep you busy in some instances for YEARS as you read a page, RE-read a page and go back to it later and read the page to refresh your memory and advance your progress.
I have a pile of my fav book perched precariously on my desk beside my computer. Many are now dog eared and tattered...loved a tad too much I am afraid. But then, a book is meant to be READ, not left on a shelf in pristine condition!
Along with book learnin', you also need to roll up yer sleeves and get your hands dirty. Not much credibility in a person that is only book learning from studying theory. You need to apply this and test what the author's say in your own coops and yards. I have found out amazing things that concur and dispute these books. Discovered a whole new white in ducks...patterned white! What is in many of these books may suit you, or not. But begin to learn and then test the theory by doing it to prove it to yourself.
I have apprenticed for 30 years with basically MUTT poultry; they have taught me SO much from the very basics of keeping the birds alive so I can breed forward from them. It has been only in the last 15 years that I have purchased the Standard of Perfections (American Bantam Association-ABA and American Poultry Association-APA) and bothered to strive to recreate the worded descriptions of the breeds (shape) and varieties (colour patterns) in the flesh. Some of it I find reasonable & practical, some of it not...but that is for ME to decide...nobody else, eh?
After about ten years of work...not an uncommon time frame...here is a photo of a PAIR of Partridge Bantam Brahmas...got the females expressing the pattern in the first generation but being that gold is gender linked...it was a bit more time and breedings to see males pure for gold produced. A work in progress I expect another ten years might, might see more stable and acceptable.
Now to roll those sleeves up higher, make the ground colour on the females a richer red pigment...clear the markings on the chests of the males by double mating for a line of exhibition males...keep an eye on the feather footing and away we continue to go...remembering to always select for better breed type and work on improving the variety.
A word of advice...the summary in order of breeding importance is this: disease resistance and vigour, production and fertility, temperament, then finally- visual phenotype (Brian Reeder mirrors my list completely!).
Phenotype or what the birds L00K like is the VERY last item of our concern...so asking what colour a bird is or how to make certain varieties, I expect it a given you have a line or strain of birds that you ADORE and have worked some years with getting to know what they throw. That you have bred plenty of birds from a select few parents...that one knows how to select and what to cull for and how to raise up the birds decently and safely. Having a coyote run thru your yard and grabbing your best bird is a given if you allow something as important as predator protection to take second seat to other priorities--haven't lost a bird since our first incident EVER here in 2007 when I got complacent about doing a nightly head count on the yard chickens and left a silly old hen out to be eaten by an owl. We all make errors...what we must do is learn to correct them.
Invest five generations into your strain so you yourself are the best judge of what you have and what you lack in the line. Preferences are not to breed pullets and cockerels but to wait at least until they are adults as by simply living that long at your house...they have proven the first three sets of criterion are met...eat the pullet eggs and harvest the cockerels that don't measure up...then go forward with cocks and hens you KNOW from having invested time in getting to know their charms and their pitfalls. You are able to judge what they look like because they have been with you thru day olds to moultings to adult plumage. You are not guessing what colour pattern they are because you can examine in hand what they are!
Why rush this along...is this NOT an enjoyable hobby one does to entertain oneself? Enjoy the challenges, learn from the mistakes; breath deeply and above all else, have good FUN!
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
Dr. Carefoot's book is a definite place to begin. It was my breakthrough book, where everything started to fall into place. He has three balls in his court: he was a true breeder, not just a theorizer; he was a scientist by training; so, he has a full view of what is important and knows how to edit out the superfluous appropriately; his style reveals him to be a true teacher; thus he writes in such a way that language is not a barrier. The difficulty with this book is that it must be procured from Veronica Mayhew directly via email and paypal, but it is worth it.
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Hi pages 334 & 335 from the Marketing and Sales chapter...we are profiled on pages 318 & 319 Breeding chapter of Glenn's Raising Poultry.
I am a fan of Clives...of that there is no doubt!
The reason you must purchase a copy of Dr. Carefoot's book from Veronica is because Clive would not allow his words to be edited, which is often done when a book is published...a snip here, an embellishment there...to make the BOOK more saleable we are often told by the editor(s)!! I believe the first edition of his book was financed by Clive himself.
My hardcopy edition is from the authorized copy of the 1st edition (1985) produced by Veronica in 2005. Clive personally gave her permission to produce this special edition and boy oh boy am I glad he did! The book is written like you are having a sit down session with a most brilliant and interesting oldtimer poultry master--a one-on-one visit full of many delights!
Clive ran the family business, a trucking company I believe, and was quite the character. I can see why he would not stand for any editing as I believe his publication as Veronica produced...is near perfect as is, where is.
Yes, some of the observations of Clive's have been improved upon (he also published some of his scientific discoveries) as we humans keep delving into more and more scientific genetic research BUT for the most part...he has a very "hands on" perspective. He did not just keep a research flock...he bred and showed his birds in heated competitions--I am told during the showing season across the Pond, one can pretty much exhibit birds every weekend! Dr. Carefoot is like many of us that are breeders of the birds; we don't hold any chicken rooles absolute until we ourselves have proven this in our breeding pen outcomes! <--Don't mind us, we are very suspicious that we shall be led down the garden path and then have to spend eons trying to get back on track to where we think we should be heading! Donna be messing with where my birds will be going next...
To Clive Carefoot's credentials (besides him having a M. Sc. and Ph. D.), one may add that he volunteered as the president of The Poultry Club of Great Britain in 1985-86. He exhibited his birds with one of his Barred Plymouth Rock cockerels featured in photograph (photo taken by Poultry World) on the very first page of his book! "Herbert" has the written caption of "The author's Plymouth Rock Club Champion, 1980 National Show. His daughter, grandson, great grand-daughter and great, great grand-daughter won the same award for the following four years." How kewl is that then...Clive not only produces CHAMPIONS but his line goes on to win five times, in a ROW! That screams accomplishment to me and the simple reality that he is willing to share with us how he goes about doing this very deed is generous over the top of just being a nice guy. There are good poultry breeders, past and present, but it is more a rarity than a commonality for these folk to put all their "secrets" out on the table for scrutiny and replication!
Page 27 shows two Plymouth Rock Bantam cockerels of Clive's...one from winning First National in 1975 and another in 1981. Caption reads, "Both bred and exhibited by the author. These photographs demonstrate an enormous improvement in six years of thoughtful selective breeding." Clive is even willing to let it "all hang out" and show what he is doing worked!
He was excentric (Clive never trusted incubators and used specially formulated setty broody hens in individual cardboard boxes to hatch out his champions<--boxed birds...really?) and you could tell he stood fast to his beliefs...Canadian poultry great, Dr. Crawford, mentioned that I should write to Clive (one dose of rec white DOES reveal itself in the feathers of some closed flocks...my Booted Bantams are ongoing living proof of that!) but alas, he had passed on round about the time I became aware of his existence. Sigh...
Good ol' Uncle Roy (as Dr. Crawford likes to be called), had Clive write the breeding portion of his book Poultry Breeding and Genetics, this book is often referred to as the poultry "bible" even though it was issued back in 1990 and many new scientific studies have altered some of the findings. The key to using books that become outdated is to know what has been superceded by newer research and what has not been improved upon.
And last but not by far the least...Clive had a sense of humour to keep things interesting. His entire book is seeded with bursts of laughter and giggles (in a very dry sense of the words!) with his closing conclusions being the most cutting edge raw and hilarious of them all...none have yet to stand up and say they HAVE discovered the gene for suicidal self-evisceration by ninety percent of one's stock, now have they?
I never found acquiring the publication all that difficult (more efficient, quicker, and personable than the big named Net book sellers). After conversing with her via e-mail, I merely mailed Veronica a money order and she had the books I had ordered (round about $300's worth) here to me in less than a week. Veronica is an absolute gem of a lady and even helps review the books that you choose, ensuring you are not buying something you will find useless OR you might find else where for less money. Indeed a treasure herself! LOL Here's a little ditty about her...she too is getting older...aren't we all...sigh...
http://poultrykeeper.com/general-chickens/poultry-antiques-from-veronica-mayhew
Since this thread is about Colour Genetics...I should post info on these two publications (nope, better add the last one too)...
The first book is excellent about turkeys (I keep referring back to it for so many other reasons past the colour genetics section!), and the next one is a classic on ducks by Dave...another excellent book not just about colour genetics but lots of good info duck related & all that jazz--FTD!. The last book I am adding DOES have info on eye colour, shanks/toes, etc. but is more about other genetic items than like Sigrid's first book (like a recipe book for colour genetics)--this one is a genetic book about other characteristics besides mostly plumage colours. LOL
- Genetics of Chicken Extremes-The Basics, By Sigrid Van Dort. Copyright 2010, ISBN 978 94 6190 118 7
Books are wonderful resources for this fun endeavour in understanding poultry genetics...but always keep foremost in mind...prove what you read and study it for yourself before you fully believe that what "theory" you are learning about is fully applicable in "practise." Proof is always in the pudding and especially in the USING & EATING of those said puddings in production of the fanciful feathers, entertainment qualities, use of the good decent eggs and tasty meats.
Some of the BEST learning about chooks is still gathered from the time you spend with the birds observing their finer and not so finer points, seeing how they measure up to your ideal visions. Best teachers are always going to be the very birds themselves.
I suggest that one find a drawing of the perfect specimens of the poultry breed you want to emulate (I adore Schillings' airbrushed photos...his visions sure rocked and many of them may be found in the 1998 edition of the American Poultry Association SOP!) and make copies to hang in the coops in sheet protectors...look up at perfection, look down and see how close it is going along. Take lots of notes; record keeping is stellar to your education and credibility...and take lots of photos as the birds progress from day olds to ancient foundation contributors of your strain. Something you jot down one day, may rear its head to be that light bulb moment going off in your skull. I have had many AH-HA moments, five and ten years later...when everything falls into place and what was a weird minor occurrence suddenly makes perfect sense...a few generations later (Dr. Carefoot says we need the third generation to really see if our breeding choices are working--when the hidden recessives start lining up to reveal themselves). We learn by doing but we need to remember the outcomes in all their intricacies too. Pretty is as pretty does and in birds, beauty is way more than just skin deep.
E. Y. Smith, Cornell University on turkeys:
What I love about this Hobby is that something as intriguing as colour genetics just helps make the Fancy even more enjoyable...because it helps me understand what is in play by making it make sense in what would seem way more mysterious than it needs to be. Genetics is just another tool in our kits to become even more an asset to the birds we choose to keep.
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
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