Color genetics thread.

[Tammylr]

Genetics wise, you have a black chicken EE and mix it with a red chicken RR. I'm not sore how to do the square or when I do it I don't know what the results mean. Two dominant are crazy.

Never got a guess from anyone. So I'll hazard some: black with red sheen as black overlaid red but with red dominant as well it still shows through, Black red "splash"?, Red with a lot of dark or black feathers too. I'm still not sure what would happen.

 

[CanuckBock]

Yes, I called them buff barred so everyone could visualize them easier. I have never heard of the term brock bar. Is that a genetic term or are they a breed?

Brockbar is a colour variety found in the breed Rocks.

I first learned of the Brockbar from Sigi's book on chicken colour genetics, page 141: "Red Barred Plymouth Rock (Brockbar), almost extinct in Holland and maybe the world." Six photos by Ary van den Brink on that page shows a pair...barred with nice rich dark almost oxblood orange red colour with some darker markings in primaries and tail of the cock. Clean legs, single comb, yellow legs...form very much like the Rock breed. Look like an interesting variety.

Sigrid's recipe portion labels the Brockbar (Red Barred or some call them Rhodebars<--even I have heard of those!) as a genetic Barred Black Tailed Red and notes one wants as little of the dark pigment in the tail as possible. Made on Wheaten or eb Brown, Barred with Db, Co (optional on eWh), and Mh with the bird based on gold (s"+"), of course!

I suspect my Brockbars here are a tad too light (probably better to label mine as Yellow Cuckoo I suppose)...no matter. I was not making Brockbars but delighted to see the variety in the flesh as it is interesting I figure...a RED barred instead of a BLACK barred. One may enjoy the cuckoo/barred pattern on any background colour of chicken (not too seeable on the Whites naturally unless one wants ghost barring...B just usually seems to enhance how white the White can be!)...so background colours and patterns may be Blue, Chocolate, Red/Buff, Crele, and Black are what we are more use to seeing and combinations of such. Very pretty.


Two UK poultry sites on Brockbars...

:
History
The first Auto Sexing breed was the Cambar (Gold Campine X Barred Rock) in 1929. it was part of Professor R.C. Punnet and Mr M S Pease experimental work at Cambridge that lead to this discovery. Barred Rock doesn’t have to be the only one used in fact but barred breed will produce the crucial barring factor but more importantly, each breed takes its character from the main pure breed used in its make-up.

The colours of the adult males are striking as they have a double dose of the barring factor, but that of the hens is often dowdy as they have only one dose, having the effect of smudging the markings.

Standards which have been passed by the Poultry Club are as follows:

Brussbar gold and silver

Brockbar

Legbar gold, silver and cream

Cambar gold and silver

Dorbar gold and silver

Rhodebar

Welbar gold and silver

Wybar gold and silver

Bielfelder gold and silver

The Cream Legbar is a crested breed (which lay a blue, green or olive egg) has had a dose of Araucana blood to give it it’s crest and egg colour.

Some are more complex in their make up. The Wybar was first launched at the Cambridge School of Agriculture circa 1941 and the breeds used in it’s make-up were the Light Sussex, Brussbar (barred brown Sussex) Canadian Barred Rocks and later on, Rhode Island Reds. The main Wyandotte variety used was the silver laced. The outcome was a large, all-round bird that is dual purpose (Eggs and Meat)

Currently the Autosexing Poultry Breeds are listed as a rare breeds and as such are currently catered for by the Rare Poultry Society.

I am not quite sure what CANADIAN Barred Rocks this site speaks of...but OK...???

I noticed your bird appears to have a black tick in tail, is that splash ( Blue )? Does he have a rose comb or a walnut comb? The smaller one appears rose comb and the larger walnut comb. Thanks for any information on this.

Well I don't remember him having coloured tail feathers-the mark you see may be damage to a tail feather I believe--our chickens lead real lives here and feathers are bound to get tattered and worn...from having FUN! I suppose if he did have a black tick in his tail, that only means he might conform more to Sigrid's definition of the Barred Red...har har!

I see only white in the tail feathers in these shots but I could well be kennel blind too!

​

The lines do have blue dilution in them but I don't think he did in particular. I never went forward with him for breeding as I had so many other males to choose from besides just him but I did keep him around because I found him interesting.

​

The lines do have blue dilution in them on both sides. This is a Bluff...hilarious really, Blue and Buff!

His tail feathers are a major mess here--havin' WAY too much fun beenin' a chook...time to moult and grow in new ones!
​

Basically a Bluff is a Black Tailed Red with one dose of blue dilution...his tail would be black if it were not diluted to blue. The Red Chanteclers (Partridge x Buff) are basically Black tailed Reds.

​

The comb on the male Brockbar is a rose comb and purity of the Cushion (strawberry/walnut/cushion are all variations of the pea comb combined with the rose comb) is the objective I am going for as part and parcel for minimal head gear. One would hope to have pure for cushion comb but there are still variations of pea, rose, and even single still popping out of lines bred for decades of generations. Bro W even had this happen. It matters when showing as it is a disqualification to have the wrong comb type for the breed, but in the breeding pen, one would sure hope the chickens used were there for much more positive items than just comb types! LOL

Hey, good enough reason to post a little learning demo on comb types...

ROSE comb



PLUS

PEA comb
​

EQUALS​

CUSHION comb
​

The way cushion comb is described for the Chantecler breed, minimal head gear is wanted but the BIRD must have wattles...small and round, but not near none...

​

I have some that have no real wattles (self buff female above and partridge female below) ​

​

While having NO wattles this is very winter hardy, it is NOT completely SOP compliant

​

Better Chantecler head gear here...

​

And here...

Males​

The Cushion comb looks like a single comb that has been dubbed...very little there. Very little to get frozen by cold temperatures!

Male​

Here is one of the females...Lemon Cuckoo or Brockbar or whatever it is labelled.

Female​

I am not sure why some say the barred females are not as pretty...I like the expression of these markings in both genders.

Maybe not as vivid a contrast as males may have but still pretty ​

The Brockbars were part of the bantam project Chanteclers I have had ongoing for nine or so years now- the F4 generation is currently growing up. Standard sized Chanteclers were bred to bantam Wyandottes (one of the historical breeds use in the composite Chantecler breed) with the goal of making real blood bantam Chanteclers.

Donald Dearing of Exeter, Ontario, is said to have created the very first bantam Chanteclers but these bantams he created did not contain a single drop of Chantecler blood. Don told me he used the breeds in the recipe of Brother Wilfrid's (Don missed the later additions to the breed made after 1921 when the Chantecler was recognized by APA--Wilfrid's obituary advised many of us of these later inclusions in the Oka strain). I still find Donald's bantams a bit too Leghorn like for my tastes--tail is a tad too long in many but that is my opinion. I lean more towards a general purpose fowl for both eggs and meat and the form should suit that intended function (Jeffrey's describes the bantam Chantecler as having a body type like a Rhode Island Red--bring on the brick...a brick with rounded corners you say?)...I do not just want winter eggs but good cockerels as culls for meat on the table of the common man--I'm thinking Cornish-like...hee hee...meaty eggy bricks to build onwards with, eh.

Hope this helps.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[CanuckBock]

​

Bantam Wyandottes, day olds - July 23, 2014 ​

​

...

I have these two boys who are (counting on fingers, 1...2...3...) now just about six months old...but no recent pics that I recall. So later today when it gets light, I'll plop them two outside (burr!) on a rail and click a few pics for you.

OK...here are some clicks of the two boyz...

On the left is Dark Dude (one dose B)...on the right is Blue Dude (two doses B and one dose Bl) - Jan 13 2015​

Blue barred Dude standing on right - Jan 13 2015​

DD and BD - Jan 13 2015​

BD - Jan 13 2015​

DD - Jan 13 2015​

What I have noted is that the blue dilution boy that had the yellow in his chick down...has some red pigments in his feathers.

I cannot say for sure if the blue with yellow down on the chick you have is gonna turn out to have ANY off colours from white or blue or even the patterns that mine express. Jest showing you a chick that has now feathered out.

Jan 13 2015​

These are NOT any known variety and these birds are not meant to be exhibited at all...just fun male birds. I could take either and cover their progeny over with recessive white to make self-Whites like these ones...

Jan 13 2015​

Then they would be an identifiable variety we recognize at sanctioned shows!

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[fadedracer]

CanachBock, Thanks for the information, It was very enjoyable!!!!!!! On your BD and DD birds, the hack and saddle feathers give it away. ( Barred in the BD bird) Thanks Again

 

[fadedracer]

Genetics wise, you have a black chicken EE and mix it with a red chicken RR. I'm not sore how to do the square or when I do it I don't know what the results mean. Two dominant are crazy.

I will try to tackle this blind folded, I would think it would depend if you were using a Rhode Island Red Cock on a Black ( Self ) Hen. Depending on what the Hen is carrying I would agree with RedRooster99 on the outcome. If both carry " Gold" not " Silver" Than I suspect you would just have a very blackish bird with some red showing. Hope this helps Tammylr.

 

[jerryse]

Never got a guess from anyone. So I'll hazard some: black with red sheen as black overlaid red but with red dominant as well it still shows through, Black red "splash"?, Red with a lot of dark or black feathers too. I'm still not sure what would happen.

Something like the hens in this picture . Black and buff mixes . Likely more red when using red instead of buff . Ignore the rooster .

 

[fadedracer]

Yes, more like the darkest birds I would think. Pretty well self blacks, with some red in the hackles, saddles and some on the body itself. Remember though it depends on the hidden modifiying genes. They should be more hawk proof than some colors. I just hope it does`t make the skin and feet too dark for eye appeal, if you eat them.

 

[Tammylr]

Something like the hens in this picture . Black and buff mixes . Likely more red when using red instead of buff . Ignore the rooster .

Thanks!!!

 

[stonefeather]

OK...just an observation since I am a tad more hung up over shank/toe colourations having dealt with two varieties in the Booted Bantams (White and MDF) requiring a light and a dark leg/foot...any chance you have mottling OR barring/cuckoo in your mix as both these no pigment interrupters will also affect leg colours by making them lighter. I see Langshans are required a more difficult shank toe colour combination; dark with pinkish (I am told once you get the combo, not so bad to maintain...but can be elusive if you don't have it). Your typical black chick has dark legs but the white and this blue dilution one may not(??), or do they develop it later as they get older...I have a male with one light foot and the other is both light and dark...the dark got darker as he got older. Please forgive me, as I don't own any breeds with this Langshan multi coloured leg trait pattern to any know better--pretty kewl! I do know I have rec white (c/c) Booteds with dark pigment and that they all lay a brown egg and some possess very dark eyes (both indicators as to how much eumelanin is often in the mix).

White Booted Bantam females, all with dark skin...black pigments right into body tissues, organs & their very bones!​

Langshans have a dark leg (with other requirements), so unlike my Wyandottes that require a yellow leg...much more freedom on what e-series is gonna work well for the breed.


In regards to guessing whether a Black female is Silver or gold in the s-series...I thought one could be assisted by the colour of the sheen (surface bubbles refracting light) on the Black feathers (unless this breed is a flat or dull black variety?). I forget but beetle green sheen was one allele, and a purple (or was it blue or brownish) sheen quite another...sorry--having an old person's moment.

I think Sigrid's chicken colour book comes with some corrections to the edition and right at this moment, I forget if it was the green sheen that was Silver or gold indicator...someone else here know? I think autosomal red also has something to do with the sheen colour in the Black feathered ones too...should really stop one day and go dig that out for sure. So many fun things about colour genetics, so little time to play in ALL the sandboxes...eh?

Here's my own sorta version of the chick you are asking about. Mine is darker (why I pondered could yours be Splash??) but no matter...thar is the yeller in the down you question in this one, so you did ask for "any help" and dat's what I attempting to do, try!

​

Bantam Wyandottes, day olds - July 23, 2014 ​

​

For a really white White, I like to see NO red pigments of any kind or sort. I even like to see a sorta blue cast for a very vivid White in adult plumage.

Jul 31 2014 Booted Bantam day olds​

The Booted White chick in the far right corner will be a vivid white...the one above has a yeller cast to it, not as white a White (think in terms of the bluing that some put in the final rinse when washing white clothes...the blue cast = ultra gleamy WHITES!).

Sep 17 2014 - Day olds​

Bottom left white container...the White but with dark cast to it Bantam Chantecler chick on the top will be a whiter chick than the others in that container. Top center blue container, two Standard Chantecler chicks on right side have red/yellow cast, will not make as good exhibition Whites. Booted chicks on bottom right white container, best White will be the one near the top...there is an ever so slight dark cast (blue, black, whatever) so to the human eye, as an adult, that one will be the best of the Whites there. Optical illusion of sorts I suppose.


Next day...those two bantam Wy chicks...

July 24, 2014 - crappy pics if colour is to be judged properly...sigh!


​

Sorry on the exposure on the two photos above...this is with a flash AND there is the glow of red heat lamp to freak the actual proper colour out. If I had known I would be hauling these pics out to assist someone else, mighta simply taken the birds outside...but t'was a busy time of year, July, so much going on...so many fuzz butts to oogle...lame excuse but that's all I got.

July 24 2014 ​

On the far bottom left in amongst the feather legged bantams (Brahmas & Booteds)...the two chicks in question...you can see the yellow glow on the bluish chick better, not a good close up, but more real on the colour presented.

July 24 2014 ​

Here is another shot of the blue male...the clean legged darker Wy chick is...he's up on the far right.

I have these two boys who are (counting on fingers, 1...2...3...) now just about six months old...but no recent pics that I recall. So later today when it gets light, I'll plop them two outside (burr!) on a rail and click a few pics for you. Laugh that I took pics yesterday of DD and BD...ha ha ha...but none of these two other boys...oh well. They do possess barring/cuckoo and I have tortured you already at the beginning of this post by showing you what barred in one and two doses in conjunction with blue dilution and single dose of rec white mighten l00k like. See, there is a method to my madness...well sorta?

I've shown you some of mine since you have shown me some of yours.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

Edit - Stoopid missed typing a l and l"+"--need seeing eye dawg..."Oh Fixins!"

Thank you for your help and the nice pictures CanuckBock! The sire is the only bird that is not from my line. I just purchased him last month and for his genetics I am going off what I was told. With that said, there is always a chance of something like a copy or two of Bl hiding under that recessive white! The breeder I purchased the sire from does keep blue Langshans as well and this is the first time this bird has bred.

Several Langshan breeders have reported in the last few years barring showing up in crosses of white males to black females. It is incredibly rare, but I have seen stranger things. I doubt there is any barring since both me and the breeder I got the sire from routinely breed our recessive white and blacks together and if the barring was there I would have expected it to show up before.

You are right on your thoughts on leg color. Yes, the darker pigments on the legs develop as the bird ages. I have always thought that was so neat! It is especially interesting in the white birds. As you noted, the white chicks legs and feet are mostly or completely lacking pigment, but as they mature over the first few months the legs and tops of the feet turn to a grayish blue color. If it wasn't below zero and show drifts everywhere, I would take a picture of the sire's feet right now to . I think they are beautiful as far as chicken feet go. They are a deep grayish blue on top contrasted by a bright pink skin on the webbing and bottom of the feet. Tomorrow, when it is a little warmer, I will try to get a picture.

Yes, I think you are correct about the silver creating the beetle green scheen on the black birds. The absence of silver (s+/s+ or s+/-) creates the purple sheen if I remember right. I have some black birds that have green sheen, but it is not as brilliant as the green sheen in other birds. Someone was telling me it is because I have some gold lurking in there, but I really don't know. There must be something else playing a part that I am unaware of. The main reason I am suspecting I have some gold allels hanging around is because I am seeing what I think is gold leakage in the hackles and saddles of my blue males. I have been told by several other breeders that it is gold leakage and that having a silver bird will eliminate it. The leakage is minimal, but seems to become more pronounced as the bird ages. I often don't see the "gold leakage" until the bird is over a year old.

I had no idea that the darker egg color was an indicator of more eumelanin. One observation I have made is that as the egg color begins to lighten, the ear lobes begin to get white in them.

I see from the bottom of your post you have Australian Cattle Dogs too? I have one of those too! He is my constant companion.....except when he is off eating all the chicken poop out of the compost bin. I think he is finally starting to slow down now that he is 10 years old : )

 

[juliemarie]

Hello everyone. I have a black bantam cochin hen and a calico bantam cochin rooster. I am assuming I will get black chicks. Any hope for any other colors. The black came from black parents and the calico from calico parents.