Color genetics thread.

[Kev]

What will a white created polish x silver laced polish look like?

Either almost solid black or mostly black, probably with little streaks of white(possibly gold?) on the breast. Roosters might show a little white leakage on the pyle zones(hackle, saddle, especially the wing bow)

Variable amount of white in crest- anything from none to a goodly number but not as much white as on typical WC.

I had a hen from this kind of cross, she was jet black all over. Thought she was much prettier than all the usual polish colors...

 

[rainbowchick]

How to visually determine between E  and ER will never be crystal clear.   They both are commonly said to have distinct chick and adult patterns but there is overlap.

It also doesn't help it's not uncommon at all for both to be found in the very same line.

The BCM I had seemed a lot more like E to me than ER...  their chicks were like the "typical" E chicks, and many hens were solid black, with copper being only on the cocks.  That's the same pattern I saw when outcrossing supposedly to be guaranteed E birds(other breeds) to e+, eb,eWh birds. So I'm guessing you're noticing the same thing I did in regards to BCM?  Addendum-  I noticed it was very easy to get solid hens out of a line descended from a BCM cross, even if they were not out of a breeding to E or ER rooster. Another thing to suspect E really is involved.

However, I also got either all black or very minimal leaking on hens from birchen modern game crosses......

Birchen old english game outcrosses did seem to be truly ER- very leaky birds, chicks were "typical" ER

But then I wonder if I am being tricked by unknown to me modifiers in any of these, making me go back to square one.

I never tried to make ER style lacing on either of these and no longer have them so will never know for sure what they really were.    You're trying for tail lacing, right? The reason for wanting ER?

I have no idea what lav amers are supposed to be on but would like to know if someone tells you.  Likewise if someone tells you a surefire way to tell the difference between E and ER.

Yes, I'm using ER for the tail lacing. Also, to avoid hundreds of additional genotypes cause by an ER or E/ER cross with eb. If I can pinpoint a lavender based on ER that will save me literally hundreds of culls.
ER based lavenders are common, and able to be distinguished by down color as chicks. However, I got my lavenders as adult birds and don't have that info (was told they came from a mixed batch of phenotypes). So my best bet is cross matings to figure out which ones carry it or not.
Turns out the gold laced Orps are harder to come by than originally thought, so I'll be hatching eggs instead of getting adult birds this year. So that'll give me plenty of time to do numerous test hatches with my lavenders... Guess I'll post my results here!

 

[CanuckBock]

Thanks! That's to my understanding as well. So it was a little confusing to get typical E pattern out of crosses with something like birchen modern games.. I am not confident enough to decide if they really were E.. or E/ER.... ER with modifiers..?

Also the other thing I wonder about, why do some ER have less or so much breast lacing- a few have it over almost their entire body, rather beautiful.

To go back to answering rainbowchick- I personally would go with chicks and adults that show the typical description of ER(as in CanuckBock's post), especially if tail lacing is desired. Just to be on the safe side.

Sigrid goes on to say that if you add pattern genes (Pg, Ml,Db, Ml) to an ER, you get lovely results, add that to E and nothing happens.

Keep in mind for an exhibition BLACK bird, E has to have helpers...it ends up looking somewhat like ER without help. A black chicken with yeller legs is less likely to be based on E too. My bantam Wyandottes are all eb Brown based...and have the yeller legs to scream that conclusion. Barred/Cuckoo and Golden or Silver Laced are basically just self-Blacks with interrupters or pattern organizers.

Patterned tailed roos are based on ER... gold/silver pencilled, autosomal barred, spangled and laced...etc.


I hesitate when someone asks about crossing a Self-Black or a Self-White because pretty much any e-series may be used to make those and we all know, the e-series "flavours" the entire way the colour patterns and genetics are expressed. You won't know the e-base of the chicken in Whites and Blacks so it is often anyone's guess.

Another item I note, you don't see many sticking their necks out (CHOP!) to say what mixed e-series are expressed like.

When a trihybrid cross results in a Punnett Square with outcomes that range in 64 potential outcomes...AaBbCc x AaBbCc = a genotypical outcome of 1:2:1:2:4:2:1:2:1:2:4:2:4:8:4:2:4:2:1:2:1:2:4:2:1:2:1 AND a phenotypical ratio expectation of 27:9:9:9:3:3:3:1 in eight expressions! It is a total crap shoot. Luck of the draw says that the least expected outcome will happen four times in one breeding simply because each toss of the dice is unto itself its own to be segregated into its own independent assortment and influences none of the other outcomes, eh. Ever seen lightening strike the same spot twice--wanna know the probability of that happening yet it still does!

How about four variables as in a tetrahybrid and that nets you 16x16 = 256 outcomes.

Sheesh...who wants to list all those as possibilities...much easier to say AFTER the fact, maybe what was produced, eh. Breed em, look at the down colour, take lots of photos from day one onwards and learn... Getting to know e-series base is good but like I just mentioned, what are the e-series impures to look like...???

Do it, record the outcomes, report back. Hind sight is 20/20. I think Rainbowchick is on the path to success for planning to do it this way.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[rainbowchick]

How about four variables as in a tetrahybrid and that nets you 16x16 = 256 outcomes.   

This is exactly why I *need* to find an ER based lavender. I can't imagine having a 1 out of 256 chance of getting what I'm looking for!
I know the difficulty of this project going into it, but I think the end results will be worth it! (You know, in three or four years....)

 

[CanuckBock]

This is exactly why I *need* to find an ER based lavender. I can't imagine having a 1 out of 256 chance of getting what I'm looking for!
I know the difficulty of this project going into it, but I think the end results will be worth it! (You know, in three or four years....)

I'll be crossing fingees and toes on your success...

So you know, I had lots say that some of our own projects & conservations were an impossibility too (real blooded bantam Chanteclers in White/Partridge/Buff, black skinned rec White Booteds for our MDF's, fully toed Brahmas, Buff Pied Americans, UK Parti Brahmas, Chocolate typey Calls...). Yeh, always great satisfaction when the c@t comes back, eh!

​

Bird in the...hand so to speak...worth two in the bush that you are dreaming on!

Go get 'em Woman...

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[Kev]

Yes, I'm using ER for the tail lacing. Also, to avoid hundreds of additional genotypes cause by an ER or E/ER cross with eb. If I can pinpoint a lavender based on ER that will save me literally hundreds of culls.
ER based lavenders are common, and able to be distinguished by down color as chicks. However, I got my lavenders as adult birds and don't have that info (was told they came from a mixed batch of phenotypes). So my best bet is cross matings to figure out which ones carry it or not.
Turns out the gold laced Orps are harder to come by than originally thought, so I'll be hatching eggs instead of getting adult birds this year. So that'll give me plenty of time to do numerous test hatches with my lavenders... Guess I'll post my results here!

That's a toughie for sure. Personally I would avoid BCM, especially if you know they looked more like typical E as chicks. It is not that easy to tell the difference between leaky E and ER so if the BCM happen to be pure E and the lavs ER.. would you be able to tell from the chicks or adults?

For that reason I would have personally crossed the lav with almost anything(even eb) besides E with the idea the chicks would have less/not pure for black modifiers and hopefully show the chick down pattern better- showing the brown face if ER, for example. Remember, E is dominant over ER and I am not sure what a guaranteed E/ER chick looks like...

I forget, are laced orps ER? Seems that way if you're choosing them. If silver laces are accessible, use them. The silver is very easy to cull out anyways.

 

[Kev]

Another item I note, you don't see many sticking their necks out (CHOP!) to say what mixed e-series are expressed like.

I think Rainbowchick is on the path to success for planning to do it this way.

I've mentioned that both E and ER have been sequenced out of black lines to a fair bit of surprise, even in breeds long assumed to be the one or other. I take it to mean mixed E/ER probably look like E...? I don't remember if the chick pattern has been described. From this I take it as meaning crosses with E and ER is a poor way to determine if the lavenders have E or ER.. or both.

My concern as for rainbowchick's plan using black copper marans based on the assumption they are ER. Well.... their chicks look like E down pattern:

http://www.mypetchicken.com/images/product_images/Popup/_MG_9625.jpg

Most hens do not have breast lacing and as I mentioned, many of the ones I had were totally black(or nearly so).

Both features match unmodified E, even the descriptions you mentioned from Sigrid's book(thanks for that, wish I had her book!).

IMO it is a bad idea to cross with E for a laced project for two main reasons- they can pass for ER if not careful and the fact E does not let many genes show up, so who knows what they are covering up... could be mostly 'clean' or have countless genes that would mess up rainbowchick's project.

 

[Kev]

This is exactly why I *need* to find an ER based lavender. I can't imagine having a 1 out of 256 chance of getting what I'm looking for!
I know the difficulty of this project going into it, but I think the end results will be worth it! (You know, in three or four years....)

I completely understand and yes it is worth it. A partially laced pullet showed up out of a very mixed free range flock with no laced birds in it. That surprised me and led me to reading up on lacing and going forward to making a project(laced naked necks). Fortunately I happened to have obviously ER birds to use for this breeding(right chick down and adult pattern) so I was successful in the third generation with clean laced naked necks. Oh I was so happy at reaching that goal and also learning a fair bit of new genetics information along the way..

I WAS a bit discouraged and waffled a little bit on starting it as that original hen was eWh/? and was told eWh makes for poor lacing, particularly on the breasts and it would be very hard to cull out. Looking back I realize it was simply honest information that ended up helping a lot and most likely saved me a lot of frustration in not understanding why the lacing was not so great on some birds.....

 

[rainbowchick]

I've mentioned that both E and ER have been sequenced out of black lines to a fair bit of surprise, even in breeds long assumed to be the one or other.  I take it to mean mixed E/ER probably look like E...? I don't remember if the chick pattern has been described. From this I take it as meaning crosses with E and ER is a poor way to determine if the lavenders have E or ER.. or both.

My concern as for rainbowchick's plan using black copper marans based on the assumption they are ER.  Well....  their chicks look like E down pattern:

http://www.mypetchicken.com/images/product_images/Popup/_MG_9625.jpg

Most hens do not have breast lacing and as I mentioned, many of the ones I had were totally black(or nearly so).

Both features match unmodified E, even the descriptions you mentioned from Sigrid's book(thanks for that, wish I had her book!).

IMO it is a bad idea to cross with E for a laced project for two main reasons- they can pass for ER if not careful and the fact E does not let many genes show up, so who knows what they are covering up... could be mostly 'clean' or have countless genes that would mess up rainbowchick's project.

Just to clarify... I'm not using BCMs in the project, just to try to discern if my lavender carries ER. Although, I do agree that there's a probability of them not being the best bet for a test mating. The pic you linked to was EXACTLY why I posted my question in the first place. In black Ameraucanas, the phenotype that BCMs chicks portray would be indicative of hetero or homozygous E. I'm starting to think I need to just hatch a new batch of lavender chicks, using my split Lav that had a brown red sister. I know she'll have to have one copy of ER if her sister had two... Then I can see the phenotypes first hand and decide which ones to use.

 

[Kev]

Just to clarify... I'm not using BCMs in the project, just to try to discern if my lavender carries ER. Although, I do agree that there's a probability of them not being the best bet for a test mating. The pic you linked to was EXACTLY why I posted my question in the first place. In black Ameraucanas, the phenotype that BCMs chicks portray would be indicative of hetero or homozygous E. I'm starting to think I need to just hatch a new batch of lavender chicks, using my split Lav that had a brown red sister. I know she'll have to have one copy of ER if her sister had two... Then I can see the phenotypes first hand and decide which ones to use.

Oops! I have a bad memory, I do apologize for any mistakes I've made here.

If possible, I'd have tried crossing the lavs with duckwing-anything as test cross, with a "clean" e+ being the best choice.

Considered a cross of lav with sebright or laced polish? Could be a good test cross plus could be used for introduction for the lacing genes?