Combining colors

[deerman]

Myself , i think the peach very well could be, both cameo, and purple. never bred them together, but produce peach chicks from a peach male and other color , but only got peach hens...no cameo or purple, which you would think a male that was peach (cameo/purple) would produce all 3 type hens.

Have no midnights, but they could carry the dark factor, and bred to the purple, may have produce the new mutation this past year, look l;ike a darker purple.

The fade facter could be some reason for opal ,or charcoal..


Good luck getting anyone to tell you how the new mutation are produce....we know the peach came from both the purple and cameo line.

In the peafowl world ,if you can get a new mutation.....high dollar birds, sad but true those that know wouldn't let that secret out.

Myself I don't have the time to work on any..at this point, if i did i would share.

I did hatch chicks from a silver pied split peach X silver pied opal....sold all those peachicks. those may very well if bred together could answer alot


For the record , I think nothing wrong with saving the new mutation........not everyone want to keep pure wild stock.

 

[AquaEyes]

Quote:
Yes, from what I've read, it seems likely that "Peach" occurred as a crossover in a male split to Purple and Cameo. What then happened is that instead of having one Z chromosome with Purple and one Z chromosome with Cameo, that male (or his sperm, depending on if the crossover happened during his embryonic development or during his sperm production) gives one Z chromosome with Purple AND Cameo and the other with neither. That's the only way the IB hen, sister to the first "Peach" hen, could have been produced from a Dad split to Purple and Cameo.

If you had a "Peach" male, that means that he has Purple and Cameo on both of his Z chromosomes, so all his hen offspring would be "Peach." However, if my hypothesis is correct, if a "Peach" male was bred to a Purple female, all his sons would be Purple, because they'd get one Z chromosome from Dad with "Peach" (which would really have Purple and Cameo on it) and one Z chromosome from Mom with Purple on it. Thus the males would have two Z chromosomes -- one with Purple on it from Mom, and one with Purple AND Cameo on it from Dad. In males, two copies of Purple makes Purple, but only one copy of Cameo isn't enough to make Cameo. All the hens would be "Peach" because their one Z chromosome, from Dad, would have Purple AND Cameo on it. We have to remember that birds don't inherit just one gene in isolation -- they get the whole chromosome that the gene sits within. So if "Peach" really is a combination of Purple and Cameo, we can't get one without the other unless another crossover occurs in a male split to Peach, and the two genes separate once again onto different chromosomes.

Oh, and if "Peach" really is a completely new mutation, and not a combination of Purple and Cameo, then breeding a "Peach" male to a Purple female could NOT result in a Purple male offspring. That one test breeding would confirm or deny my hypothesis. You could substitute Cameo, by breeding a "Peach" male to a Cameo female. In this case, if there are no Cameo males produced, "Peach" is truly a separate mutation and not a combination (but at this point, from what I've read, "Peach" is most likely a combination). But I'd think that, based on other posts, it'd be much easier distinguishing Purple chicks from "Peach" chicks than distinguishing Cameo chicks from "Peach" chicks.

The other mutations do not occur on the Z chromosome, so they'd be much easier to combine with the sex-linked colors because they won't require crossover. I don't know on which chromosomes the other mutations occur, and it's possible that two non sex-linked mutations might be found on the same chromosome (so, for example, if Midnight and Bronze were on the same chromosome, it'd be harder to combine them because another crossover event would have to occur, and these events are random). But by the nature of their inheritance, we KNOW that Midnight, Bronze, Charcoal, Opal, Taupe, Jade, and possibly Sonja's Violete (I don't know the last one for sure) occur on chromosome(s) different from the ones carrying Purple, Cameo and "Peach." So combining any one from the first group with any one from the second group would be just as easy as combining black shoulder with any one of the second group, as black shoulder is also an autosomal recessive mutation. The fact that the mutation is a color or a pattern has no bearing on figuring out how to combine them -- only the mode of inheritance.

I would also like to thank you tremendously for pointing out something that should have been obvious to me but wasn't. Yes, the reason I don't seem to get much information about this from breeders might be that they want to keep the origins of color-breeding in the dark, so that instead of allowing amateurs to mix and match on their own, the amateurs will have to wait until the big breeders make something new and buy it from them. I can't say for sure this is the case -- another member PM'ed me saying that 1) not all breeders are as well-versed in genetics, and 2) there seems to be a UPA-sanctioned "frowning" upon combinations of colors, but allowing combinations of patterns. Well, I guess if this goes unanswered for the years before I'm able to have my own peafowl, I'll just have to set up some breeding pens of my own and post the results for all to see. In the meantime, if anyone with peafowl is interested in some experimental breeding, I'd be happy to communicate what I know of genetics with your experiences, and perhaps guide you to creating a new phenotype resulting from combining two colors. I'd REALLY love to see what the darkening of Midnight looks like with Purple, especially since these two colors retain the iridescence of the original IB.

Thanks again, Deerman. I'm new to BYC, so I've only just been finding out that you're battling some health issues. Good health to you, and I hope you find some time and strength to continue enjoying your passions.



~Christopher

 

[deerman]

Quote:

Yes, from what I've read, it seems likely that "Peach" occurred as a crossover in a male split to Purple and Cameo. What then happened is that instead of having one Z chromosome with Purple and one Z chromosome with Cameo, that male (or his sperm, depending on if the crossover happened during his embryonic development or during his sperm production) gives one Z chromosome with Purple AND Cameo and the other with neither. That's the only way the IB hen, sister to the first "Peach" hen, could have been produced from a Dad split to Purple and Cameo.

If you had a "Peach" male, that means that he has Purple and Cameo on both of his Z chromosomes, so all his hen offspring would be "Peach." However, if my hypothesis is correct, if a "Peach" male was bred to a Purple female, all his sons would be Purple, because they'd get one Z chromosome from Dad with "Peach" (which would really have Purple and Cameo on it) and one Z chromosome from Mom with Purple on it. Thus the males would have two Z chromosomes -- one with Purple on it from Mom, and one with Purple AND Cameo on it from Dad. In males, two copies of Purple makes Purple, but only one copy of Cameo isn't enough to make Cameo. All the hens would be "Peach" because their one Z chromosome, from Dad, would have Purple AND Cameo on it. We have to remember that birds don't inherit just one gene in isolation -- they get the whole chromosome that the gene sits within. So if "Peach" really is a combination of Purple and Cameo, we can't get one without the other unless another crossover occurs in a male split to Peach, and the two genes separate once again onto different chromosomes.

Oh, and if "Peach" really is a completely new mutation, and not a combination of Purple and Cameo, then breeding a "Peach" male to a Purple female could NOT result in a Purple male offspring. That one test breeding would confirm or deny my hypothesis. You could substitute Cameo, by breeding a "Peach" male to a Cameo female. In this case, if there are no Cameo males produced, "Peach" is truly a separate mutation and not a combination (but at this point, from what I've read, "Peach" is most likely a combination). But I'd think that, based on other posts, it'd be much easier distinguishing Purple chicks from "Peach" chicks than distinguishing Cameo chicks from "Peach" chicks.

The other mutations do not occur on the Z chromosome, so they'd be much easier to combine with the sex-linked colors because they won't require crossover. I don't know on which chromosomes the other mutations occur, and it's possible that two non sex-linked mutations might be found on the same chromosome (so, for example, if Midnight and Bronze were on the same chromosome, it'd be harder to combine them because another crossover event would have to occur, and these events are random). But by the nature of their inheritance, we KNOW that Midnight, Bronze, Charcoal, Opal, Taupe, Jade, and possibly Sonja's Violete (I don't know the last one for sure) occur on chromosome(s) different from the ones carrying Purple, Cameo and "Peach." So combining any one from the first group with any one from the second group would be just as easy as combining black shoulder with any one of the second group, as black shoulder is also an autosomal recessive mutation. The fact that the mutation is a color or a pattern has no bearing on figuring out how to combine them -- only the mode of inheritance.

I would also like to thank you tremendously for pointing out something that should have been obvious to me but wasn't. Yes, the reason I don't seem to get much information about this from breeders might be that they want to keep the origins of color-breeding in the dark, so that instead of allowing amateurs to mix and match on their own, the amateurs will have to wait until the big breeders make something new and buy it from them. I can't say for sure this is the case -- another member PM'ed me saying that 1) not all breeders are as well-versed in genetics, and 2) there seems to be a UPA-sanctioned "frowning" upon combinations of colors, but allowing combinations of patterns. Well, I guess if this goes unanswered for the years before I'm able to have my own peafowl, I'll just have to set up some breeding pens of my own and post the results for all to see. In the meantime, if anyone with peafowl is interested in some experimental breeding, I'd be happy to communicate what I know of genetics with your experiences, and perhaps guide you to creating a new phenotype resulting from combining two colors. I'd REALLY love to see what the darkening of Midnight looks like with Purple, especially since these two colors retain the iridescence of the original IB.

Thanks again, Deerman. I'm new to BYC, so I've only just been finding out that you're battling some health issues. Good health to you, and I hope you find some time and strength to continue enjoying your passions.



~Christopher

Not sure because I don't have midnight, but the Violete may just be a midnight purple, as it is also sex link like the purple, and has the darker violete color, maybe because of the midnight gene. and both carried on different chromosomes.

Thanks for the good wishs on my health. Sorry to say i will not have time to work on these......down to 20 breeders birds those are soon to be gone soon, looking at them today some grand peacocks , i miss some already like my white eye peach ,and the bronze turning white, but they are in good homes. I had peach in all the patterns...now down to the white(peach) and a silver pied split peach, which is sold we think. If he like him when he see him....which anyone seeing him would take him in a heart beat...lol

 

[connerhills]

Christopher, On the info re; The UPA frowning on the combination of colors, I would think that the person making this statement has their info wrong. As a past president, vice president, treasure and a current BOD member of the UPA, this statement about frowning on combining colors has never been discussed in a BOD meeting at least in the last 10-12 yrs. Some people might object to the practice, but people object to useing spaldings (which make a more outstanding peafowl both in color and type ) or making them also. Very few people even understand the sex link or black shoulder breeding and most can care less . I would like for you to join the UPA and help with the younger membership and educate the next generation ( after people like Brad and deerman and all of the others are through ) When I started feeding peacocks over 30 yrs ago I could find no one to ask as there was very few who cared (this was before the UPA ) and now there are many who have an interest.. Anyway every person can breed any way they want as the UPA has no say about it.. It was me that started and changed the way the colors are listed and it was Brad legg that presented me the first drafts and after many times Brad worked and changed the listing and then presented to the UPA BOD who voted to make the changes. There were a number of good reasons to have that done. There is still a lot to learn and some of it is not even known here,even now. I appreciate your interest and expertise in genetics and hope you can contribute a lot to the peafowl world in the future. Thanks George .. connerhills... home of the Sonjas Violete. sex link color.. even that name has a background.

 

[deerman]

I have to agree with George about UPA frowning on crossing colors.


I myself don't because a cross of say bronze and opal, you get blue looking chicks splits. My guess that the reason most breeders don't, not that they frown on it.

 

[AquaEyes]

Thank you both for continuing the discussion. Like I said, the "frowning upon" was just something someone PM'ed me, and wasn't something that occurred to me as a possibility until then, and what you said (connerhills) makes more sense. Deerman, when you say that breeders don't cross colors because they get just IB-looking offspring, that's because they are splits, and will need another generation to show both colors. Combining, say, Bronze and Opal would be the same as combining Bronze and blackshoulder. If you breed a Bronze with barred-wings to an IB with blackshoulder, you will get IB with barred-wings in the first generation. You won't get Bronze blackshoulder until you breed the first generation together (or with other birds from an unrelated pairing of Bronze barred-wing X IB blackshoulder). The same applies with Bronze and Opal. A breeder crossing the two would then need to breed the next generation together to get birds that are visual for Bronze and Opal.

Bronze X Opal =
100% IB split to Bronze and Opal

IB split to Bronze and Opal X IB split to Bronze and Opal =
25% IB split to Bronze and Opal
12.5% IB split to Bronze
12.5% IB split to Opal
12.5% Bronze split to Opal
6.25% Bronze
6.25% IB
12.5% Opal split to Bronze
6.25% Opal
6.25% Opal Bronze

In the F2 generation, 1/16 will be combined Opal Bronze (statistically...these are probabilities, not certainties). If anyone was to try combining colors, I'd highly recommend NOT using blackshoulder in the mix in the beginning. As seen in my double split X double split example, there will be a range of phenotypes (IB, Bronze, Opal and Opal-Bronze) and it would be hard to determine which is which when coupled with the blackshoulder gene leaving hens mostly white.

Combining a sex-linked color with an autosomal recessive color would be easier, since females need only one copy to be visual. A Midnight male split to Purple bred to a Midnight female would give 50% of hens as Midnight Purples.

I wonder what Cameo and Bronze would look like...maybe a milk-chocolate shade of brown between the two colors. Or perhaps a Peach-Bronze combo.....

The ingredients are out there.



~Christopher

 

[deerman]

Yes i understand that, but most work with one color at a time.


BS is a pattern, i breed for a pattern then add the color.

I did sell some silver pied males chicks that had to be split to peach and opal.

Oh sure alot are working on this already, i hatch some rare color chicks last year. . but for me cant take the 6 years it takes to breed F2 , peafowl not like parakeets, chicken, where you can be breeding F2 within a year..take at least 4 yr at best another reason why i wouldn't breed a opal to bronze rather use those years putting that color on a pattern like blackshoulder, or silver pieds.


So you can see how many years it would take to test these ideas

 

[AquaEyes]

Quote:
Yep...totally understand the time factor involved. And to wait that long and possibly end up with a bird that looks unattractive when two colors are combined wouldn't be fun. I guess it wouldn't take any longer than combining patterns, but at least you know how they work, and this is somewhat unknown. I suppose that if someone kept his eye open for the right kind of splits being advertised and buying them up, that person could cut a few years off the wait-time. And, hey, if nothing else, it's a project I can look forward to for when I'm ready.



~Christopher

 

[Henk69]

Crossing over only occurs in meiosis during sperm and eggcell production.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

all this sounds good in therory, BUT the fact of the matter is, peafowl just dont breed like that. They are mutations of a color. From all I have been told and seen they will just simply be splits and all crosses come out blue (yes except for the sex linked stuff) but blue split to whatever...
a mutation is just that, a random mutation of a gene that casues something odd to happen and caus ethem. There is no way to set out to breed for it to happen, it just does. I would feel if it was as simple as just breeding this to that, after all the centuries people have kept peafowl we'd have a lot more than the 14-15 colors that we do now. The 200+ listed are not colors, the are pattern combos of the actual colors , so no they dont count, and 1/2 of them are just spalding hybreds, so they dont count either. It would be cool if it did work that way. I for one wouldnt frown on it, but for some reason, breeding mutations together doesnt work like breeding chicken colors toegther, never has, never will unfortunately.
It's a cool idea and all, and obviously a lot of time and thought has gone into it....but they just wont mix, they'll be splits, except for that 1 in a million new mutation that Legg will come up with one day, but again, that will be a mutation, not a color mix combo