Combining colors

Quote:
This bird is what is called a "halfsider" and the condition is not capable of being transmitted to further offspring. It is a random event not caused by genes but (probably, see below) a mistake in cell-division very early in development (when the organism is only at the few-cell stage). Yes, I know this is in different species, but the principle doesn't change.

http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/genetics/halfside.html

http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/halfside.htm

http://www.google.com/images?q=half...ZGI_rgQeco5HJCw&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=621

So while one article proposes nerve damage as the origin of halfsiders, other people believe it is the result of a mosaic condition. Here's the simplified explanation:

We start out as one cell (a fertilized egg). That one cell undergoes mitosis (copying and division) to become many cells. Sometimes there is an error in the division, and if that error doesn't kill one of the cells, the error will be passed down to all descendants of that cell. Imagine you have a one-page document. You make copies on a xerox machine, but not in the conventional way -- you do one at a time. Take the original, scan it, make one copy. Then take the copy and make a mark on it. Now make another copy of the original, and a copy of the marked copy. Continue making one copy of each sheet of paper you have. Soon, you'll have a lot, and you'll notice that half of them have a mark from that first copy. Same thing happens with the cells -- they maintain that original copying error down the line. In the organism, cells begin to occupy distinct positions and start forming something of a definite shape. Now the copies with the mark may be all on one side, and the copies without the mark on the other. The organism continues to grow, develops, and is born/hatched. If the original copying-error affects a gene (or whole chromosome) that affects coloration, you will see a difference from one side to the other.

This "halfsider" will not be able to pass on the "halfsider" condition because it is not something caused by genes. Some halfsiders are sterile (look up gynandromorph) because the "left side vs right side" is not just a difference in color, but a difference in gender (male left side, female right side, or vice versa). Only in species which are sexually dimorphic (boys and girls look different) is this apparent. Quite striking examples can be found in Eclectus parrots, where boys are green and girls are red/blue. Gynandromorph halfsider Eclectus parrots will be green on one side, and red on the other.

There are other, more common, forms of mosaicism. A great example is calico or tortoiseshell cats. Remember that in mammals, it is the male who has the different sex chromosomes, and the female has two of the same (males XY, females XX). Only one X chromosome is required for life functions, so in females, the other must be mostly "turned off." So, at a certain cellular stage after an egg is fertilized (I don't remember which stage, but it is much further along than the "halfsider" moment), one of the female's X chromosomes is mostly inactivated. Determining which X chromosome is completely random, but all cells descending from those cells will maintain the same X inactivation. So let's say one cell inactivates the X from mom -- all cells descended will have mom's X inactivated.

In cats, the red and black color alleles (same gene, different versions) are located on the X chromosome. This is why calico (red, black and white) or tortoiseshell (red and black) cats are (almost) always female, because in order to have both alleles (red and black), they need to have two X chromosomes. The rare males that are tortoiseshell or calico usually result from being XXY and are often sterile.

OK, so now look at a calico cat. One of her parents carried black, the other carried red. Let's say Dad was black and Mom was red. The calico gets one X from each. Early on in development, one X is randomly chosen for inactivation, and then development continues. When you see the patches of red and black, you can see which X was inactivated. The red patches arose from cells in which Dad's X was inactivated (black turned off, red turned on), and the black patches arose from cells in which Mom's X was inactivated (red turned off, black turned on). This is why distribution of red/black color in calico cats is impossible to breed for. This is also why, a few years back, the first cloned cat looked different from the original. WHY they picked a calico cat is beyond me, but the cloned offspring was not calico. Why? Because, as I mentioned earlier, whichever X is inactivated will be maintained by all future mitotic descendants of that cell. Take a tissue sample from a "black" region and the whole clone will have red turned off, even though genetically it is still calico (has one red and one black allele). And that's what happened. Oh, and the white spots in calico are controlled by a separate gene for white spotting.

The point of the whole thing is that when you see some sort of mosaic individual, the mixed pattern results from cellular differences, not a new kind of "pied."

:)

~Christopher
 
Quote:
I didn't know that Blackshoulder splits were visible. Interesting...I just assumed they were a recessive mutation, but apparently, there is some kind of partial or incomplete dominance going on. In "true" recessive mutations, there is no difference between birds with one copy from birds with no copy. Thus if blackshoulder followed the "true" definition of recessive, you couldn't tell a pure barred-wing from a barred-wing split to blackshoulder. Are females split to blackshoulder different looking from pure barred-wing females?

See, I don't know everything....that's why I come to BYC. Together we will learn.

:)
 
Oh, and just to avoid confusion....I was thinking last night that possibly one reason for the reluctance to believe that peafowl could show two colors might have been a misinterpretation of "showing two colors." Especially after reading some responses today, I want to clarify what I mean.

When I ask about breeding a Purple Midnight peacock, I'm not saying that some feathers will be Purple and some feathers will be Midnight. This is not what I mean by "showing two colors." What I mean is that Midnight causes a darkening of the neck feathers, and Purple (seems) to lighten them somewhat, and bend the light to make the blue regions look "purplish." I'm saying that a Midnight Purple will have a combined look -- darker neck feathers with a purplish cast -- and not some Midnight neck feathers and some Purple neck feathers. This combination (in my head) seems to be a nice color, and I hope I'll get to see it one day.....Oh, and I have email.

:)

~Chris
 
Quote:
This bird is what is called a "halfsider" and the condition is not capable of being transmitted to further offspring. It is a random event not caused by genes but (probably, see below) a mistake in cell-division very early in development (when the organism is only at the few-cell stage). Yes, I know this is in different species, but the principle doesn't change.

http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/genetics/halfside.html

http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/halfside.htm



http://www.google.com/images?q=half...ZGI_rgQeco5HJCw&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=621

So while one article proposes nerve damage as the origin of halfsiders, other people believe it is the result of a mosaic condition. Here's the simplified explanation:

We start out as one cell (a fertilized egg). That one cell undergoes mitosis (copying and division) to become many cells. Sometimes there is an error in the division, and if that error doesn't kill one of the cells, the error will be passed down to all descendants of that cell. Imagine you have a one-page document. You make copies on a xerox machine, but not in the conventional way -- you do one at a time. Take the original, scan it, make one copy. Then take the copy and make a mark on it. Now make another copy of the original, and a copy of the marked copy. Continue making one copy of each sheet of paper you have. Soon, you'll have a lot, and you'll notice that half of them have a mark from that first copy. Same thing happens with the cells -- they maintain that original copying error down the line. In the organism, cells begin to occupy distinct positions and start forming something of a definite shape. Now the copies with the mark may be all on one side, and the copies without the mark on the other. The organism continues to grow, develops, and is born/hatched. If the original copying-error affects a gene (or whole chromosome) that affects coloration, you will see a difference from one side to the other.

This "halfsider" will not be able to pass on the "halfsider" condition because it is not something caused by genes. Some halfsiders are sterile (look up gynandromorph) because the "left side vs right side" is not just a difference in color, but a difference in gender (male left side, female right side, or vice versa). Only in species which are sexually dimorphic (boys and girls look different) is this apparent. Quite striking examples can be found in Eclectus parrots, where boys are green and girls are red/blue. Gynandromorph halfsider Eclectus parrots will be green on one side, and red on the other.

There are other, more common, forms of mosaicism. A great example is calico or tortoiseshell cats. Remember that in mammals, it is the male who has the different sex chromosomes, and the female has two of the same (males XY, females XX). Only one X chromosome is required for life functions, so in females, the other must be mostly "turned off." So, at a certain cellular stage after an egg is fertilized (I don't remember which stage, but it is much further along than the "halfsider" moment), one of the female's X chromosomes is mostly inactivated. Determining which X chromosome is completely random, but all cells descending from those cells will maintain the same X inactivation. So let's say one cell inactivates the X from mom -- all cells descended will have mom's X inactivated.

In cats, the red and black color alleles (same gene, different versions) are located on the X chromosome. This is why calico (red, black and white) or tortoiseshell (red and black) cats are (almost) always female, because in order to have both alleles (red and black), they need to have two X chromosomes. The rare males that are tortoiseshell or calico usually result from being XXY and are often sterile.

OK, so now look at a calico cat. One of her parents carried black, the other carried red. Let's say Dad was black and Mom was red. The calico gets one X from each. Early on in development, one X is randomly chosen for inactivation, and then development continues. When you see the patches of red and black, you can see which X was inactivated. The red patches arose from cells in which Dad's X was inactivated (black turned off, red turned on), and the black patches arose from cells in which Mom's X was inactivated (red turned off, black turned on). This is why distribution of red/black color in calico cats is impossible to breed for. This is also why, a few years back, the first cloned cat looked different from the original. WHY they picked a calico cat is beyond me, but the cloned offspring was not calico. Why? Because, as I mentioned earlier, whichever X is inactivated will be maintained by all future mitotic descendants of that cell. Take a tissue sample from a "black" region and the whole clone will have red turned off, even though genetically it is still calico (has one red and one black allele). And that's what happened. Oh, and the white spots in calico are controlled by a separate gene for white spotting.

The point of the whole thing is that when you see some sort of mosaic individual, the mixed pattern results from cellular differences, not a new kind of "pied."

:)

~Christopher

in the pigeon world i had one we call them mosaic, no can't be produced
 
The breeder I mentioned previously has emailed me back, granting me permission to post his email to me on this forum and identify him. His name is Clifton Nicholson, Jr., and he is the owner of Roughwood Aviaries. It was at Roughwood that the first Peach peahen was hatched, from the mating of a male split to Purple and Cameo to a Purple hen.

from Clifton L Nicholson Jr <[email protected]>
to Christopher Gordon <[email protected]>
date Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 11:40 AM
subject RE: Peafowl Genetics questions

hide details 11:40 AM (9 hours ago)

Christopher,
Thanks for the email. I checked out the Back Yard forum.
I've never heard of a crossover, but sure would answer the questions of how
the Peach occurred. The only other answer being a new mutation. I
personally felt that it was a combination, but don't understand genetics
enough to know how.
I have been working on Purple Midnights for many years I have Purple
Midnight hens but have not had a male live to maturity. Should be
successful one of these years.
One of the most interesting birds I've hatched was a hen that had areas of
normal Blue and also areas of Blk Sho. She was like a Pied Blue except
instead of white areas there were Black Shouldered areas. I never
established this. I'll have to do some checking to remember what I
produced. It was years ago.
I have combined Purple and Bronze. There are 2 distinct new colors
produced from this cross. There are pale colored ones and darker colored
ones. The pale ones having juvenile plumage more like a Purple, but
maturing into a darker more intense purple navy. I call them Indigo. The
darker variety has the look of Bronze, but mature into a brighter dark blue
green neck iridescence. I call these Bronze Indigo. Both are very
beautiful.
I've also had some success in crossing Charcoal, Opal, Bronze, Cameo, and
Purple, but they seem, so far, to be varying shades of gray.
I knew someone who combined Charcoal and Cameo. Offspring only slightly
different from parents.
Email with questions and I'll send more as I have time.
Clifton Nicholson, Jr
- Hide quoted text -

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Gordon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 1:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Peafowl Genetics questions

I posted a question on the BackYardChickens forum and do not seem to
be getting knowledgeable answers. As the person who bred the first
Peach peafowl, you seem to be an ideal person to ask. Please see the
post linked below. Any and all feedback will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

:)

~Christopher Gordon

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=461096






In addition to asking his permission to post his email here, I asked if he had any pics of his birds. This was his reply:


Christopher,
Yes, you may post. I am not sending pictures at this time. I know this
hurts your case, but not in the fight to win it for you. Must do what's
best for me. Perhaps later. Even a picture would not convince these that
your discussion is with. I'll see what I have that might be convincing.
Clifton
 
Clifton emailed me to find the outcomes of an F2 generation involving three colors plus blackshoulder. I used a genetic calculator to come up with the results. Wow, there are so many....no wonder this hasn't been tried that much. I do hope he'll share some pics with me. I'm dying to see what the Bronze Purples (he calls them Indigo and Dark Indigo) look like. Are y'all still following me?

:)

~Chris
 
Adding something -- if any of you ambitious breeders want to see what a combined color would look like, there is a way to obtain it in the first generation, if you find the right breeder birds. By scouring the internet, I've come across ads showing peacocks for sale that are visual for one of the autosomal recessive colors (for example, Bronze) and also split to one of the sex-linked colors (for example, Purple). If you find a male for sale like this, SNATCH HIM UP. Pair him to a female visual for the same autosomal recessive color (in this example, a Bronze hen, NOT a Purple hen), and half of your hens FROM THIS BREEDING will be Bronze Purple.

If you find a male that is split to an autosomal recessive AND a sex-linked (for example, split to Bronze and Purple), SNATCH HIM UP. Again, pair him to a female visual for the autosomal recessive color (for example, a Bronze hen, NOT a Purple hen). 1/4 of the hens FROM THIS BREEDING will be Bronze Purple.

Finding such males will allow you to see hens visual for two colors in your first generation.

Good luck...and share pictures if you succeed.

:)

~Christopher
 
Quote:
What genetic calculator?

www.gencalc.com

There isn't a peafowl entry, but, knowing how each mutation is inherited, I simply substituted a mutation in another species (I chose budgies) that is inherited the same way. So for sex-linked I used Ino, and for the recessives, I picked Blue, Danish pied and Brownwing. When the percentages came up, I retyped them all, and substituted the corresponding peafowl mutation.

:)

~Christopher
 

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