Controversial opinions, eh? Kinda thinking "who has time for debate for the sake of it", lol... The debates I've gotten into on this site have been because someone has attacked my statements or opinions, not because I go around soliciting pointless arguments or attacking people for the funzies.
If I was debating something with someone, somebody else stepping in and arbitrarily telling us it's not to be spoken about anymore, would definitely just provoke me to quit the thread and/or take it to PM. So this wouldn't wash:
Quote: I prefer the old fashioned method, i.e. both debaters keeping at it until the mods delete the whole conversation. >
Ok, seriously, I don't, I prefer to reach some sort of mutual understanding in the middle, or at least agree to disagree, but generally this is not something anyone who debates with me has been open to. Being into what I'm into (natural alternatives etc) is an unforgivable insult to some sorts; it doesn't mean I actually want to engage in pointless b*tchfests with them.
@Bens-Hens :
Quote: There would always be farms, especially if there were no cities, because people still need to eat. Before cities were built there were always people producing to feed themselves. The old family farm versus the massive company farm. Without that distinction being made the issue becomes confused.
Back through history all the way until we're addressing hunter-gatherer societies, cities are built based on those who produce food. Those who provide the food are not dependent on cities until we start involving economics and commercialism. Commercial farming is a rather modern concept which obviously gives the impression that farms need cities, because massive farms these days are profit-oriented not self-sufficient. Even then, 'need' is a subjective term.
At the end of the day, the only job a person needs is one that gives them food, not money, so if all cities were wiped off the earth, farms would survive just fine. But if all farms were wiped off the earth, cities would begin to die immediately.
This brings me to another point, the whole idea of rural people 'needing' city people. Again, before there were cities, there were family groups supporting themselves. Rural folks don't need city folks. Now it's all tied together economically, but if worst came to worst, people wouldn't die for want of money, they'd die for want of food. Farm > city in terms of importance.
Also, about that idea that if everyone supported themselves there would be no doctors... Who missed history class?! Even in the most primitive societies there are, and have always been, those who doctor other humans and animals. Even animals will to some extent attempt to doctor others and themselves. I.e., a mother chicken with good instincts knows to seek out specific foods when her infants are sick with certain diseases, and animals have de-worming programs they put themselves through if you only make the herbs etc available to them, and so forth. Health care is so intrinsic to life that even the less intelligent animals have a health treating 'instinct program' they adhere to which self-adjusts based on whatever the animal's needs are.
Before there was official accreditation and the invention of the certificate, there were always members of each group of people who were doctors in all but the modern title, versed in knowledge of human or animal health care, at least to the best extent possible within the constraints of their times, which was not as outright ignorant as modern kids are taught they were.
We're still discovering the truth in many of the "old wives tales" and things that were soundly dismissed by mainstream scientists just a little while ago. Which are now accepted, i.e. the antibiotic properties in the Allium family, spiderwebs, healing properties in various plants, etc as well as the rather profound healing properties of healthy foods themselves, in terms of the actions of vitamins and minerals and macro, micro, trace elements etc in our systems.
The lore of natural healthcare is thousands of years old in every country, and every people no matter how apparently primitive had their own local-specific lore, it's just now being scientifically verified after previously having been groundlessly scientifically dismissed.
Quote: No. You do not need any of those other jobs to have doctors, barring possibly the teacher, which was historically always just another doctor or 'medicine person'. In most cases medicinal lore had much of its beginning in watching what animals used to treat themselves for different disorders, and experimentation was not as large a part of it as you'd possibly think.
In history, even in the most primitive times and societies, there have always been those who knew what certain plants do to certain conditions, wounds, etc, and basic health care, who passed this information down throughout the ages with every generation. Recently more knowledge has been gathered in many areas, but throughout history there have been periods of greater knowledge, often lost soon after and followed by periods of ignorance, it's a cyclical thing.
The modern concept and lore of health care is developed from the ancient and primitive, not pulled out of thin air like a magic trick, or recently invented. There are many recent discoveries but medicine itself is ancient.
Quote: Humanity used to live like this, it isn't some abstract idea. It's history. Money is not the be-all and end-all and it's easier to understand how people used to live when you focus more on the importance of bartering/trade etc, which existed instead or, or alongside, money, in most societies.
Everyone producing everything for themselves isn't really something that happened in most societies. People traded and bartered for extras while producing all their own staples. For example the people farming lush land had all the vegetables etc they needed but also needed salt, seaweed, etc from other places and would share their produce with those who harvested those natural products from such places. People exchanged goods so everyone had what they needed.
If you're talking about a family of 6 people providing their own necessities, it's not the case that every single person plants their own patch of every vegetable they need, and keeps their own flocks, in most cases there was a single family garden and a family group of animals tended in part by everyone, kept for everyone's benefit, but usually with everyone having their own specific roles and areas of expertise. For those things they couldn't obtain themselves they would trade or barter or use some kind of financial system to obtain from traveling merchants.
Doctors were paid likewise, and of course worked for 'free' within their own families, because it was just another job around the place that had to be done. Nobody really worked for free because everything was in common; everyone worked for everyone's benefit. Everyone used to be a jack of all trades. Nobody was 'just' a farmer, which actually is many jobs rolled into one anyway. Only comparatively recently have trades separated and become so specialized, compartmentalized and totally money oriented.
This is not some guess at how humans used to live, it's known and proven history, and still is the way some more primitive tribes live. A further self-education in primitive societies would benefit some people enormously and answer these sorts of basic historical questions, as well as provide some fascinating views into history. In some places the educational system is a literal joke and you must educate yourself, because the system certainly won't.
Quote:
I don't know if you're joking. If you're not, if those are serious statements/questions, then your school has failed you. In case you're serious, I will answer. In case you weren't serious, I apologize in advance.
Your immune system combats viruses. With a healthier, more natural lifestyle, most viruses are not an issue, and as always the strongest survive and breed more strong ones. With modern lifestyles and population densities and the prevalence of artificial antibiotics being used to make superbugs (I mean defeat some quantities of some viruses and strengthen the percentage that is not defeated, lol) the viruses are stronger than they have been in history, spread faster, and have more weakly hosts to attack.
Historically, bone-setting has been one of the earliest medicinal achievements. It's thousands of years old.
Broken bones fix themselves, or more to the point the body heals naturally, unless they're seriously messed up --- and even then they can often fix up into some sort of functional form, without medical help. Even in wild animals, you will see some hideous disfigurements that they've survived without medical help. Bone setting, splinting, etc is an ancient bit of medicinal practice.
And you can indeed "just grow antibiotics". Spiderwebs used to be used in open wounds, and recent science has confirmed that they are rich in many natural antibiotics, which our ancient forebears knew anyway, even if they didn't call them antibiotics --- they still knew there was something in the web that stopped infections. Garlic and others in the Allium family are rich in many natural antibiotics which recent science has found are more powerful than even the most powerful man-made antibiotics, hence their ancient revered status as disease killers. There are many natural sources of antibiotics, not just the Allium family. Mouldy bread, even, used to be used for its penicillin.
Quote: A neurosurgeon rarely sees the death of their patients compared to for example nurses and GPs. Those who cut into brains do it while the patient is under general anesthetic and on a form of life support. Even if the patient dies then, with them being on some form of life support, it's rather harder to discern; when the patient fails to recover, it's apparent, but the neurosurgeon doesn't necessarily see that. When the neurosurgeon is done with the surgery, they walk away, and the normal care takes over, so nurses etc tend the patient; these are the people who arguably see the most death firsthand. In most cases the neurosurgeon will hear back later about the patient's progress or death. Not see it or have to deal with it firsthand.
Anyway, best wishes. and history is fascinating, really worth looking into how ancient cultures survived.
