Coronavirus, Covid 19 Discussion and How It Has Affected Your Daily Life Chat Thread

[SnapdragonQ]

Hmm, how do I explain this.

My brother is abusive. My family STILL don't remember any calm explanations for why I don't want to be around him and it's been 20 years but they remember the shouting matches crystal clear. "But you're family! You should forgive him!" Was ALWAYS in an attempt to make me be willing to be around him.

I've got five niece/nephews across three mothers from him, some older than me. Of his bio kids, four have had hospitalized suicide attempts (3 have multiples), two have been arrested at least once, and three are addicts, none of them has a career, home, only one has a stable partner, etc. The youngest is a teen mom with my grand-niece just this month, no dad involved, lives with her mom still and works at a drug store as a cashier, was previously diagnosed with severe kleptomania. Some of my sisters recently tried to stop my brother from taking my fathers retirement money. One of them confessed to me that she was scared he was going to show up at their doorstep with a gun if she kept trying.

Seeing what other people went through I can't even imagine what it would have been like if I "forgave" him, and tried to exist around him peacefully. Would I even be alive right now? I genuinely don't know.

Anger, grudges, fear - these are often responses we develop to keep us safe from harm. There's no nice platitudes that make them go away - only real growth on behalf of the people causing harm or an absence of the person doing harm. Certainly if it's over something less we should develop the ability to let it go. And if you have the option to just not engage with someone without consequences, that's good! That means you can stop being hurt and move on!

But real forgiveness, the kind that lets you get along with someone, have a coffee with someone, celebrate a holiday with someone? That requires love. It's for things like "You broke my favorite tea cup", or "You called me a mean name in jest and it actually hurt" or even "You did something VERY dangerous but you realized it could have hurt me and felt bad and took steps to not do it again". Not "You did something that risked my life and didn't care and still don't and you will continue to risk my life for your own benefit". How can you try to love someone who is happy to see you in pain and refuses to try to be better? That's just toxic behavior - if that were someones husband, we'd tell them to get a divorce! It's not better if it's "family".

We live in a time when a lot of choices have the potential to risk a lot of lives. So it does not surprise me at all that people are divided. Because REAL forgiveness, the kind that lets people get along instead of avoiding one another, doesn't happen without recognizing harm.

I agree and I disagree...
To me there is, or can be, a separation between forgiveness ..true and deep forgiveness on the part of the giver, and "now we all can get along"/I love you/I want to be around you.
As mentioned already, forgiveness is more about your (general you) healing and moving forward. It isn't really about the person doing (or did) the transgression against you.

Anger, grudges, fear - these are often responses we develop to keep us safe from harm. There's no nice platitudes that make them go away - only real growth on behalf of the people causing harm or an absence of the person doing harm. Certainly if it's over something less we should develop the ability to let it go. And if you have the option to just not engage with someone without consequences, that's good! That means you can stop being hurt and move on!

You are right, anger, fear, and a grudge can keep us safe from that which caused it. There are no nice platitudes. But those can often rob us of many things and tear us apart inside.
When the other person will not, or cannot, change or be trusted, forgiveness helps you let go of the pain and the despair or darkness deep in who you are, but your mind does not forget. It will still be cautious and wary, and that can be a good thing!

Forgiving, or letting go of the bitterness, is a way to help yourself heal that deep deep hurt so it doesn't have any power over you anymore. Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to tell that person, go ask to be hurt again, or even be around someone you do not want to or are stressed to be around. You can still be wary, cautious, even fearful...but those can exist apart from bitterness, hate, or anger.

The "now can get along"/I love you/I want to be around you certainly needs change from that person to make you feel comfortable. If that's possible...sometimes it just is not. And you (general you) may never get to a point of having coffee with, being around for a family gathering, or even stand to be in the same room with! That's ok. Most of that is on them, not you. You can still do "your" part of forgiving in order to mend yourself, for yourself.

I do agree...often people are very quick to say "Let's all be forgiving and just get along" or "we're family, we have to get along" without really understanding some of the deep wells of hurt some kinds of family do to one another. Kinda like saying to a recently divorced person, who did so because of say...spousal cheating or abuse..."Meh, no big deal...just forgive and everything will be ok."
Just keep in mind, nearly (nearly) anyone who would say something like that did not have a spouse sleep around town on them or abuse them, so they do not understand.

Now, I do agree that cutting family ties over typical (note I said typical) family disagreements in politics does deserve a "Just forgive each other and get along for goodness sake!!" And perhaps a good whack up side the head.

It's hard to explain or put on paper, but letting go of unforgiveness inside oneself is rather freeing. Even if not another soul knows about it but you. Because you are the one that matters.

(be easy on me...it's Friday and my caffeine reserves are gone...)

 

[SnapdragonQ]

As for the Family pushing you to forgive? Sometimes it's easier to understand that maybe they are lacking the ability to understand. Doesn't make it right, but sometimes it stings less than to think they see it the same way you do or that they understand and just don't care how you feel.
Think of them as incapable. You can still love them (or not) as your family though.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

Hmm, how do I explain this.

My brother is abusive. My family STILL don't remember any calm explanations for why I don't want to be around him and it's been 20 years but they remember the shouting matches crystal clear. "But you're family! You should forgive him!" Was ALWAYS in an attempt to make me be willing to be around him.

I've got five niece/nephews across three mothers from him, some older than me. Of his bio kids, four have had hospitalized suicide attempts (3 have multiples), two have been arrested at least once, and three are addicts, none of them has a career, home, only one has a stable partner, etc. The youngest is a teen mom with my grand-niece just this month, no dad involved, lives with her mom still and works at a drug store as a cashier, was previously diagnosed with severe kleptomania. Some of my sisters recently tried to stop my brother from taking my fathers retirement money. One of them confessed to me that she was scared he was going to show up at their doorstep with a gun if she kept trying.

Seeing what other people went through I can't even imagine what it would have been like if I "forgave" him, and tried to exist around him peacefully. Would I even be alive right now? I genuinely don't know.

Anger, grudges, fear - these are often responses we develop to keep us safe from harm. There's no nice platitudes that make them go away - only real growth on behalf of the people causing harm or an absence of the person doing harm. Certainly if it's over something less we should develop the ability to let it go. And if you have the option to just not engage with someone without consequences, that's good! That means you can stop being hurt and move on!

But real forgiveness, the kind that lets you get along with someone, have a coffee with someone, celebrate a holiday with someone? That requires love. It's for things like "You broke my favorite tea cup", or "You called me a mean name in jest and it actually hurt" or even "You did something VERY dangerous but you realized it could have hurt me and felt bad and took steps to not do it again". Not "You did something that risked my life and didn't care and still don't and you will continue to risk my life for your own benefit". How can you try to love someone who is happy to see you in pain and refuses to try to be better? That's just toxic behavior - if that were someones husband, we'd tell them to get a divorce! It's not better if it's "family".

We live in a time when a lot of choices have the potential to risk a lot of lives. So it does not surprise me at all that people are divided. Because REAL forgiveness, the kind that lets people get along instead of avoiding one another, doesn't happen without recognizing harm.

I'm sorry for your suffering. Forgiveness does not mean letting an abusive person continue to abuse you. It does not mean even letting them into your life, your circle of contacts. It does not mean letting them off the hook for what they have done to you and yours. It does not mean saying, "it's okay," or "it doesn't matter." It means acknowledging that, although they hurt you beyond their ability to fix what is broken, you choose to walk away. You are simply acknowledging the fact that there is NOTHING they can do to fix or repair that brokenness, and you accept that.

I guess it is like, if you had a store where you sold rare treasures or porcelain and glass and ceramic, and one day a child came in and was looking at all the beautiful treasures. And she bumped or dropped something, and there was no way she could pay for it. This comparison breaks down here because she would probably be sorry, and your brother isn't. But the point is, you wouldn't hold it to her account. You would forgive her.

In order to heal, to be made whole, we must come to the place where we can deal with our worst enemies the same way we would with that child. Because the bottom line is this: first, neither one can pay back what they owe. And second, we have also hurt others, whether we know it or not. And God says that if we can't forgive those who have hurt us, He can't forgive us. And I'm not willing to live with that. So I had to ask for that kind of forgiveness. Because it wasn't in me.

Because, like you, I had a toxic, dangerous person in my life. I hope I never see him again. But by the grace of God, I have come to a place where I no longer hate, fear or resent him. I have turned him over to the Lord to deal with as He sees fit. Just because a person is "family" does not mean I have to put myself in a situation where they can hurt me again. That's not good stewardship. It's unwise, careless and stupid. Only a fool would stick his hand in a rattlesnake's den. I wish you peace and healing.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

When I had to separate from my abusive mother, I took a lot of flack from my siblings about it. They did not understand. But I just told them I was sorry they didn't get it, but I had to stay away from her for my own mental health. Years later, they all told me they finally got it. When she didn't have me to abuse she became abusive to each of them in turn. They didn't realize.... you just have to do what's best for you, and don't let others pressure you. Take care of yourself. Get counseling. It helps!

 

[SnapdragonQ]

I'm sorry for your suffering. Forgiveness does not mean letting an abusive person continue to abuse you. It does not mean even letting them into your life, your circle of contacts. It does not mean letting them off the hook for what they have done to you and yours. It does not mean saying, "it's okay," or "it doesn't matter." It means acknowledging that, although they hurt you beyond their ability to fix what is broken, you choose to walk away. You are simply acknowledging the fact that there is NOTHING they can do to fix or repair that brokenness, and you accept that.

I guess it is like, if you had a store where you sold rare treasures or porcelain and glass and ceramic, and one day a child came in and was looking at all the beautiful treasures. And she bumped or dropped something, and there was no way she could pay for it. This comparison breaks down here because she would probably be sorry, and your brother isn't. But the point is, you wouldn't hold it to her account. You would forgive her.

In order to heal, to be made whole, we must come to the place where we can deal with our worst enemies the same way we would with that child. Because the bottom line is this: first, neither one can pay back what they owe. And second, we have also hurt others, whether we know it or not. And God says that if we can't forgive those who have hurt us, He can't forgive us. And I'm not willing to live with that. So I had to ask for that kind of forgiveness. Because it wasn't in me.

Because, like you, I had a toxic, dangerous person in my life. I hope I never see him again. But by the grace of God, I have come to a place where I no longer hate, fear or resent him. I have turned him over to the Lord to deal with as He sees fit. Just because a person is "family" does not mean I have to put myself in a situation where they can hurt me again. That's not good stewardship. It's unwise, careless and stupid. Only a fool would stick his hand in a rattlesnake's den. I wish you peace and healing.

This!
Minus the Christian part of it. Not because that part isn't true for Christians, but because the principle of how letting go helps oneself is true no matter what a person's affiliation (or not) is. Forgiveness is about letting it go so it will not impede your inner self or your inner peace/happiness anymore. And this part leads to the calm.

Edit: typo

 

[BigBlueHen53]

I guess I learned not to expect "justice" in this world. Something unspeakable happened to my daughter when she was a young teen. Charges were filed. In the "halls of justice," before the trial, an agreement was reached, in which the man who stole her innocence was ordered to "pay" for his crime by spending weekends in jail for six months. In another state, a man who had done the exact same thing to another child her age went to jail for ten years. My daughter never recovered from the trauma. No, this was not justice. But I chose not to let this destroy me.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

I think we have different ideas of forgiveness.

If someone tells me I'm forgiven I assume that's the end of it - no further effort on my part or maybe it wasn't a big deal. Like to forgive a debt means it's gone. The people in my house agree that forgiving someone means you're OK with them. But I know not everyone has that definition.

And justice is VERY important to me. Ruthster hit it on the head. You can't just keep asking over and over for victims to forgive without also trying to seek justice. Justice matters, and is a prerequisite to real healing for MANY people.

Framing it as a choice is also unfair IMO. Trauma DOES destroy people and they did nothing to chose it. Lots of toxic positivity IMO.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

I think we have different ideas of forgiveness.

If someone tells me I'm forgiven I assume that's the end of it - no further effort on my part or maybe it wasn't a big deal. Like to forgive a debt means it's gone. The people in my house agree that forgiving someone means you're OK with them. But I know not everyone has that definition.

And justice is VERY important to me. Ruthster hit it on the head. You can't just keep asking over and over for victims to forgive without also trying to seek justice. Justice matters, and is a prerequisite to real healing for MANY people.

Framing it as a choice is also unfair IMO. Trauma DOES destroy people and they did nothing to chose it. Lots of toxic positivity IMO.

Thanks for clarifying. I do think it is important to realize, and respect the fact, that whatever "forgiveness" might be for an individual, it has to happen on the hurt person's schedule and timetable. Nobody should push anyone or guilt anyone into it! Nobody should be made to feel that they HAVE to forgive another person! Even in the Christian realm, there is such a thing as an "unforgiveable" sin.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

If that "toxic positivity" was aimed at me, I do apologize. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. ❤

 

[ChocolateMouse]

It's kind of all around and I've heard a lot of it lately. Time are tough and there's a lot of strain on people. Letting people feel angry, sad, etc. shouldn't be so hard. Feeling negative feelings can be a perfectly healthy response to certain experiences and I wish people would let that sink in sometimes.

Like the twins who split up. I can't help but feel like there's some level of hurt there that's impossible to bridge without REALLY feeling it. I would be incredibly angry if I was in that position and someone told me to just forgive. It would feel like toxic positivity. Division is normal between people who are hurting and people who hurt. And it comes with a lot of bad, but normal, feelings.

I've recently heard the the opposite and healing of negativity isn't positivity - it's warmth. It's comfort and love and community and even justice. I think that's a better place for us to put our focus every time.