Coronavirus, Covid 19 Discussion and How It Has Affected Your Daily Life Chat Thread

[ChocolateMouse]

Respectfully, I think you unfairly lumped together many different points of view. It's entirely possible for an individual to embrace some of those views and not others. You can be pro-vaxx generally and not confident in these vaccines, specifically. You can understand the mechanics of how masks and respirators function without believing the government should force people to wear them. You can acknowledge the seriousness of COVID-19 without holding other people responsible for your own individual health and safety.

Respectfully, I think you're wrong about how I perceive these people.

I have lumped these people as putting their personal feelings before public safety. In each of the cases you've described I think that it's clear they have.

You can't say you have public safety in mind while opposing a vaccine unless you also have evidence that the vaccine kills more people faster than the virus it prevents. There's no evidence for that.
You can't believe in public safety and say that the government should not enforce masks if the masking not being enforced is causing a public safety hazard.
You can't believe in public safety and take on an attitude that people should be able to behave in ways that put that at risk.

They might not be exactly the same. But they are cut from the same cloth. That their personal choice is more important than a strangers life. I think that's a shameful position to take. Luckily it's got NO grounds, legally. As a society we've determined time and time again that it's not your right to put other people at risk. You have no freedom to endanger others. And you will be fined or arrested if you do.

So I'm just going to keep being glad for every additional mask mandate and fine levied and restriction added. Because doing nothing is not an option. And in a year it will all be gone and those people will still complain about laws that prevent them from not putting others at risk. And they will keep getting passed because it's the right thing to do.

I for sure feel you are entitled to your convictions, I also believe that if the powers in charge thought it was needed there would be mask mandates and complete lockdowns everywhere, but I don't see that. Everyone should do everything they feel is necessary to stay safe during this pandemic. What I dont believe is that it is my place to tell you what that should look like for you.

There ARE mask mandates and there have been complete lockdowns. People flipped out.
In many places there are mandatory quarantines to great effect. Just not here.
Imagine the riots if they tried to do more than ask for a tiny slip of fabric to be worn. There's already protests and deliberate destruction for a NON MANDITORY vaccine that's TOTALLY OPTIONAL. The powers that be know this and know that you can't prevent more deaths by starting a civil war. But they're trying to do everything they can within those limits. Perhaps they could do much more with it if it hadn't been heavily politicized. But that ship has sailed. Our nation put profits before lives and now we have the highest percentage of dead from COVID in the whole world.

 

[Molpet]

You can acknowledge the seriousness of COVID-19 without holding other people responsible for your own individual health and safety.

If that worked it would be great.

 

[RebeccaRN]

Respectfully, I think you're wrong about how I perceive these people.

I have lumped these people as putting their personal feelings before public safety. In each of the cases you've described I think that it's clear they have.

You can't say you have public safety in mind while opposing a vaccine unless you also have evidence that the vaccine kills more people faster than the virus it prevents. There's no evidence for that.
You can't believe in public safety and say that the government should not enforce masks if the masking not being enforced is causing a public safety hazard.
You can't believe in public safety and take on an attitude that people should be able to behave in ways that put that at risk.

They might not be exactly the same. But they are cut from the same cloth. That their personal choice is more important than a strangers life. I think that's a shameful position to take. Luckily it's got NO grounds, legally. As a society we've determined time and time again that it's not your right to put other people at risk. You have no freedom to endanger others. And you will be fined or arrested if you do.

So I'm just going to keep being glad for every additional mask mandate and fine levied and restriction added. Because doing nothing is not an option. And in a year it will all be gone and those people will still complain about laws that prevent them from not putting others at risk. And they will keep getting passed because it's the right thing to do.



There ARE mask mandates and there have been complete lockdowns. People flipped out.
In many places there are mandatory quarantines to great effect. Just not here.
Imagine the riots if they tried to do more than ask for a tiny slip of fabric to be worn. There's already protests and deliberate destruction for a NON MANDITORY vaccine that's TOTALLY OPTIONAL. The powers that be know this and know that you can't prevent more deaths by starting a civil war. But they're trying to do everything they can within those limits. Perhaps they could do much more with it if it hadn't been heavily politicized. But that ship has sailed. Our nation put profits before lives and now we have the highest percentage of dead from COVID in the whole world.

I said mask mandates and lockdowns everywhere

 

[RebeccaRN]

For the record I've not said anything
against mask wearing or the vaccine

 

[ChocolateMouse]

I said mask mandates and lockdowns everywhere

Money and "keeping the economy going" is an awfully powerful motivator. In fact, you may notice, it's the most commonly cited motivator for not having lockdowns. "Freedom" is another but neglects to address responsibility.
In countries that HAVE had longer lockdowns and more effective masking regulations case counts are lower.
Just because it's effective or the right thing to do doesn't mean our nation will do it. Many things are effective but don't serve an ideology and so aren't done. This is true everywhere.

I'm just looking forward to everyone I know being vaccinated. Then I can stop caring as much, even if anti-vaxxing and anti-masking behavior is still morally abhorrent and a health threat.

 

[EmmaDonovan]

Respectfully, I think you're wrong about how I perceive these people.

I didn't address perceptions. I made three statements of fact:

1) "You can be pro-vaxx generally and not confident in these vaccines, specifically." What in that statement do you think is not factual?

2) "You can understand the mechanics of how masks and respirators function without believing the government should force people to wear them." What in that statement do you think is not factual?

3) "You can acknowledge the seriousness of COVID-19 without holding other people responsible for your own individual health and safety." What in that statement do you think is not factual?

 

[IamRainey]

Anyone can say anything they want to here. No one has prevented anyone from doing it. No one who isn't an administrator can. OTOH, freedom to say what you will does not come with immunity from response.

So how about we cool off a little?

Just keep in mind that falsehoods won't go unchallenged. Mask wearing is objectively effective. It may not be 100% effective but 50% or 70% or 90% are all effective and the stats on mask wearing are the best thing short of the vaccine that we have going. Meanwhile, the effectiveness, whatever it may be, is in no way diminished by some governors making political decisions not to mandate them. If not wearing masks -- and, inexplicably, making a manifesto of declaring that about once every 24 hours -- is important to you, those states might be the places to be.

 

[RebeccaRN]

Iceland did a fantastic job with the pandemic they did extensive tracing and got it under control pretty quickly with almost no lockdowns at all. Our government might wanna take notes!

 

[EmmaDonovan]

the stats on mask wearing are the best thing short of the vaccine that we have going

Are masks and vaccines all there is?

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Respectfully, I think you unfairly lumped together many different points of view.

I didn't address perceptions. I made three statements of fact:

1) "You can be pro-vaxx generally and not confident in these vaccines, specifically." What in that statement do you think is not factual?

2) "You can understand the mechanics of how masks and respirators function without believing the government should force people to wear them." What in that statement do you think is not factual?

3) "You can acknowledge the seriousness of COVID-19 without holding other people responsible for your own individual health and safety." What in that statement do you think is not factual?

You did address perceptions. First line. I think people are capable of not being all three of those at once but I also think the motivation behind any of those is largely from the same cause. When you say I lump them together, I do, by their root cause and effect, not their specific statements. (But also demographically if you believe one of these you're more likely to believe the others.)

However TEEEEECHNICAALY The only one of those statements I disagree with is the last one. The first could, for example, be motivated by ignorance or previous allergic reactions to vaccines. The second you could have ideals that have been proven in the last year to not work very well when implemented boots on the ground, in which case I think you're misguided. But not really the third.

I must admit I am giving the benefit of the doubt that these people don't want to die and also respect facts. Because if we don't agree that other lives are worth not-killing and that facts are factual there's no discussion to be had. It's just one person saying something factual and the other saying "nuh-UHHHHH 'cause I said".

So. If you believe COVID is serious because it's made by demons, or bill gates, or Moloch as some people do... Or if you believe it's serious for factual reasons and just don't care about someone elses behavior endangering you... Well I suppose you're technically correct.

But otherwise it's either it's a deadly virus that someone else could spread to you and that's serious.... Or it's not.

Are masks and vaccines all there is?

Unfortunately for many people they are. Many people are deeply uninsured and can't see doctors. There's no FDA approved preventative other than the several vaccines moving forward, though some doctors are prescribing experimental treatments (assuming you can afford to see a doctor). Most folks aren't yet eligible for the vaccine. Most people don't have the option to never leave home - they must either work to afford that home, or might not live in a place where grocery delivery is an option for example. So it can be hard to be responsible for you own health when options are limited. And these are people who probably work full time and live with other people.

I know a lot of people in these situations, unfortunately. Once we have the tools, like free/low cost vaccines, to make ourselves safe then yes I agree it becomes our responsibility. Or if an FDA prophylactic treatment gets approved and people are capable of seeing doctors to get it at a low cost form a pharmacy. But we don't yet.

Iceland did a fantastic job with the pandemic they did extensive tracing and got it under control pretty quickly with almost no lockdowns at all. Our government might wanna take notes!

This would be pretty good. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to implement any more. There's too many people and it's too endemic.
Contact tracing works best on a smaller scale, when infection rates are lower. That's actually how we managed Ebola was contact tracing and quarantine and it worked great cause we caught it early. I would LOVE to see it happen but it would be a MASS coordination at this point and many people would balk at it. I mean, if wearing a wee mask is too much a violation of someone's freedom imagine how violating being TRACED is!?!? Plenty of people who don't want one don't want the other either...

I wouldn't mind at all. I would be all kinds of down to clown with contact tracing and individual quarantines. I'd be thrilled.