Cream Legbar Club -- WWIT

[faykokoWV]

You mean so that sellers of hatching eggs can over-value their birds more than they already do? If that's the case, it looks like the breed is gonna head down the path of, "Oh, your birds aren't in the club database, they're not REALLY Cream Legbars."

On that note, I vote 100% against it instead of being open to the idea. This will just serve to give the club an elitist attitude in the long run.

"That bird isn't a standard color, it's not one of this breed..." Sound familiar?

I agree, I don't know where the happy medium is. there has to be some way of showing you have stock to support the price you need to charge to manage the cost of keeping birds and people to sell crap birds on ebay claiming they'er cream legbars when they aren't even close. i guess its up to the buyers to do the research.

Maybe a disclaimer on the registry then saying that it is only for the purpose of tracking breeding and avoiding in-breeding due to the limited genetic pool? It can state that being on the registry doesn't indicate the quality of the birds?

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Good thoughts on the registry... definitely points that need to be discussed further. I see the registry as still useful, albeit limited at times.

My vote on the logo is still second row down on the left.

 

[ChicKat]

Good thoughts on the registry... definitely points that need to be discussed further. I see the registry as still useful, albeit limited at times.

My vote on the logo is still second row down on the left.

X2 except without the stars. ;o)

 

[ChicKat]

You mean so that sellers of hatching eggs can over-value their birds more than they already do? If that's the case, it looks like the breed is gonna head down the path of, "Oh, your birds aren't in the club database, they're not REALLY Cream Legbars."

On that note, I vote 100% against it instead of being open to the idea. This will just serve to give the club an elitist attitude in the long run.

"That bird isn't a standard color, it's not one of this breed..." Sound familiar?

MnM Thanks for bringing the logos to this thread.

Regarding 'that bird isn't a standard color, it's no one of this breed' - Are we talking Ameraucana Breeders Club here? It's kind of like a trade mark it needs to be protected. And I think a registry is one way to have people avoid that problem. JMO..... I know that feathers have been ruffled by people who act as 'enforcers' -- but in someways they have to do that because so many of us are pretty ignorant about what makes a true Ameraucana. (I still have some confusion).

Regarding color and the right standard, the SOP group is currently struggling very much with just that subject the gold-ness or the cream-ness of the hackles. It is pretty important, and it should be taken very seriously. If this breed will be recognized by the APA as a breed, then we do need to have very specific identifications.

If you were to be in need of a CLB or some hatching eggs TODAY...for example, let's say you love this breed and want to develop it -- and a hurricane had tragically claimed all your presently existing clbs (hope it would never happen but trying to make a scenario) WHERE would you go to get quality birds? If that were to happen to me, I would go to a couple of people here on the board that I feel as if they are friends as well as fellow clb owners, or to GFF, or to this source for hatching eggs.

http://www.mypetchicken.com/catalog...ching-Eggs-Cream-Legbar-Ships-free-p1231.aspx

BTW, the eggs are not presently available* and they are 75.00 for 6 and 120.00 for a dozen...so in my mind, the fertile clb egg is at about $10. -- and I think an average hatch-rate statistically according to my books is 80% - and if one gets 50% males...the value of a hen is high. On the Greenfire Farms website, I just checked, hen or pullet is around $60, and cockerel $20, and IMO these are very fair values. You get what you pay for. If a local breeder could have quality fertile eggs, then I would save the risk of postal mis-handling, and possible drive a bit to get eggs that I trusted. *My late father-in-law had a hardware/appliance store. People would come to him and say -- the store down the street has that item for much less. He would say--why don't you go buy it there? They would say -- well the store is out of them.... he would say -- well I can sell it for $1 if I am out of them....(a little 4AM humor there folks) So if I wanted hatching eggs right now, I would be out of luck.....


Once we have standard flocks, we may be looking for specific traits to incorporate into our flocks. Perhaps I want to up the egg production, I could check in the database and see who's hen is at or above 200 per year... If I have a hen at 160--- then I may want to get some genetics from that person.... etc.

There isn't much else that I would trust. The people who have birds that I would be interested in -- guess what? trace back to the original imports from Greefire Farms.

And remember that 'My Pet Chicken' is more a clearing house than raising their own chickens from what I understand so they are sourced elsewhere.

So yes, in a way it is 'elitist' - Kind of, that is what a standard and selective breeding entail.

 

[ChicKat]

I agree, I don't know where the happy medium is. there has to be some way of showing you have stock to support the price you need to charge to manage the cost of keeping birds and people to sell crap birds on ebay claiming they'er cream legbars when they aren't even close. i guess its up to the buyers to do the research.

Maybe a disclaimer on the registry then saying that it is only for the purpose of tracking breeding and avoiding in-breeding due to the limited genetic pool? It can state that being on the registry doesn't indicate the quality of the birds?

faykokoWV,

I think that you have identified some things we need to look into.... I am also concerned about people selling 'cream legbars when they aren't even close' - especially to folks new to chickens and to chicken raising...it would be like fleecing people. Will the newbie buyer know how to do the research and where to look? Being someone starting in chickens too, it would be great for them to have these wonderful birds, but beginners may not realize the value of, or want the investment in quality birds.

I think that the registry will/would help promote genetic diversity and also help cream legbar owners match their birds to performance of other birds...weight, fertility rate, egg color, plumage color etc...and we can improve the breed overall.

Stoneunhenged suggested a period when everything could be registered, then the registry be closed. Another approach for consideration may be a 2-tier database. Without APA confirmation, a cream legbar isn't a breed in the USA...however, you have identified to my thoughts that someone would sell 'cream legbars when they aren't even close' - SO--- we do have specific characteristics of the cream legbar that we recognize -- and as all of us learn more we identify birds that more closely match where we are trying to go!!.

MnM mentioned producing a LOT of cream legbars. Some breeders think that a person needs a very large population to be able to select only the best from these. I have also seen breeders that have a very small population (thinking cattle here because I have more experience with cows) - and from that small population with strict culling they have bred grand champion stock. (with the cost of registered cattle, unless someone has been in the business for a long time, they don't have a population to equal chickens in numbers.) But entry into a registration database would be a huge task --- unless.....

What if there was a more public database where individuals could enter their own birds... only club members or people grandfathered in would have the ability to enter. One of the fields would be something like the percent certainty of the parentage..... like, someone has one hen and one cockerel -- and that is all they have---they sell all their hatchlings and only have these two birds...they would have 100% certainty....or someone is a professional breeder...with all the requirements that entails...they would have 100% certainty.... It would be honor system. Selected from that database (kind of like a poultry show--) based upon appearance, performance, percent of certainty --- reputation of the breeder etc...would be birds that were promoted to the (dare I say it??) elite database -- data there entered only through the club. ---

Cost for registration of a bird to the first database --let's say something like 2.00 -- so that a bird that is boarderline, or doesn't lean toward the standard...wouldn't be entered....culls wouldn't be entered... Like the charming little guy I have right now --with the crooked comb...probably NOT entered, unless his coloration becomes perfectly spectacular for the SOP -- then maybe for his color with the notation that his comb is diagonal on his cute little head.......

Database birds would be different from non-database birds. eBay sellers that are passing of 1/2 cream legbars as cream legbars would probably never spring for a db entry....

The club would have a 'poultry show' yearly of 1/2 yearly -- and the winning birds or a certain number of winning birds would go to the 'elite' database.

Again I want to say a word about databases....there are free db's out there--- that just about anyone could set up --- because the guys who have designed these sites have t ton of db knowledge... However the more experienced the person that sets it up -- the better it functions.

 

[ChicKat]

I didn't say anything about the 10-20 people contributing to the club and standards at the moment. Notice how I said, "in the long run," in that post?

What about my other points?

What if I take my "pure" Cream Legbar, breed it to another breed, and have a few chicks come out looking like the Cream Legbar Standard, which are only actually 50% Cream Legbar, and register them as coming from X Male and V Female? What if this chick is hiding a ton of recessive traits? Continue this, with people registering these crosses.... Now what? Who is going to fix the registry to purge these "pure legbar entries" from it, and then proceed to tell these people their birds aren't allowed in the registry now?

What about verifying someone's chicks who are hatching 100 a week?

Yes, you can design a registry, you can use a registry, but for poultry and the way poultry works, you can't have a long running functional registry.

If someone were to pass off cross bred cream legbars as pure cream legbars, their reputation on the registry would plummet IMO Like an ebay reputation let's say. I

f there were a cost to registering each chicken, then they would be unlikely to register 100-a-week. If they were a responsible breeder and not just a propagator, most of their 100 would probably be culled, or not put into a breeding program....

I almost think that if someone hatched 100-a-week, thinking that 1/2 would be cockerels, they would very soon be so over-run with chickens that they couldn't keep up with the feed bill.

so some of the problems that you are identifying would be self-correcting in the shake out.

I suppose too, that if we did have 2-databases or a 2-tier database, then only some individuals from the conglomerate databse would be passed by the club or a committee of the club into the top tier--- JUST like in a poultry show--- and for people who really cared and wanted quality birds...wanted to track the genetic background of their future birds etc.... they could select from individuals or from hatching eggs in the database that fit their needs.

ETA - then of course if the 100-chicks a week person did want to register all their chicks....the club could pay for a lot of database hosting...and become a profit center and be required to pay income tax...LOL

 

[ChicKat]

My two perfect specimen CL's produce chicks with DQ's. These bird with DQ's aren't allowed in the registry? They are "pure" Cream Legbars, but they aren't, because you can't "register" it.

In all likelihood, a breeder wouldn't register any chick that had DQs because the object of being a breeder is to improve the breed. If the chick had a DQ it would be a cull. I have another example of that--- my little chick who's wing was torn off by a raccoon... I don't know chicken anatomy well enough or have vet experience to know what blood vessels were torn off with that attack, I suspect that she could/may never grow to normal maturity to lay eggs. Were she to do so--- genetically the eggs are perfect.... Her defect is not genetic. She isn't one that would go into the registry IMO.

 

[ChicKat]

I know some really awesome, free, no ads webhosts that I've used quite often. I can buy the domain as well, registered to the club, of course.

I can design and implement a database, but in no way shape or form do I want the task of tracking and verifying entries. Honestly, I think it's a ridiculous idea, and have from the jump, but I'm open to it. Seriously, other livestock, it works great due to the gestation periods, growth rates, limited offspring births, and if ever there arises a question on legit lineage, DNA testing exists for these types of livestock.

I literally have 100-200 chicks hatching each week, and will be hatching that many starting in the spring of just Cream Legbars... You want the task of verifying each chick to make sure they conform when they get older? I'm assuming we won't be able to submit to the database until at least 4 months of age for physical verification... What about someone that has hatched chicks from a few different breeders, didn't track and didn't mark, and then mixes up the lineage when they mark and submit? This thing is epic fail from concept to implementation, but if the club wants it, the club wants it. It's a huge waste of time and resources when you look at the big picture.

Do we have a chance to do something groundbreaking? Sure, but there is absolutely no way possible to keep it accurate and legit.

This is a good point MnM-

Other livestock registries have controls in place. Perhaps that is one of the reasons that there is a high price on registry of some types of livestock. The very cost of registration would be prohibitive.

Perhaps there are ways to keep things accurate and legit.... Glad that you brought up this point for the group to examine.

 

[ChicKat]

Many breeds of animals, when first being established, have a very limited number of individuals to use for a breeding population. Having an open registry at the beginning of your efforts is a very wise choice. Remember that even individuals that are not perfect specimens can make a genetic contribution that might prove valuable later, such as superior egg laying or egg quality, fertility, hardiness, and vigor. Once a larger population has been established you can start making pickier selections based on traits such as appearance. Attempting to select based only on appearance when you have a small population can easily lead to pretty birds that are substandard in other ways.

Thanks 1muttsfan,

There are folks that have cream legbars out there that we would certainly want to keep on the radar....I'm thinking here of the white ones that popped up. Not only is selection important on multiple characteristics, it is essential. WE could have a hidden health problem that we don't even know about.

I also think that the breed has some adjustments as it acclimates to the USA. Our climate to my knowledge has more extremes than in UK. Some folks are worried about clb combs...I worry a bit about heat resistance for my adorable top-knot hens.... To my knowledge Marek's in UK is a different vaccine than Marek's in USA.

Some breeds got into trouble by putting too much focus on just one trait...etc. We still IMO want the excellent all-around-bird for a backyard flock....

A while back too, in another forum some talk was mentioned about a 7/8 program. We have that in our cattle breed, but the candidates need to be recognized and worked through the program from the first F1 gen. With chickens because they are so much more prolific and because they have a shorter cycle to maturity - Perhaps if such a program were ever considered, it would need to be a 14/16 or something...and even then it may be just crazy. Lots to consider.

Thanks for the contribution.

 

[redchicken9]

I'm in on a club, but sketchy on a database.

Is it a gimmick, advertisement tool, money maker for anyone?
Who resolves issues? Provides updates?
Does it exclude anyone, either by cost or nature?
Is it smart, easy to use?
For example the American Dairy Goat Association manages the database for dairy goats. Is a club the place to have a database?
Do people love or hate to use databases, ie. what are individual incentives to do this?
Does it cost more to maintain and upgrade, then it's value to the users?
Is purity a link to where you bought your chickens or to how they meet the definition of the breed?
Can it improve breeding?
Can you actually trace a chick to an adult chicken?

Well, you get the idea. I think it'll fly or flop based on its utility and purpose.

Two other thoughts.

Laugh here if you will, but chickens are making babies all the time. Does a database even matter to genetic improvement? The fecundity of livestock like cattle, goats (even pigs) is relatively low, CLs like most poultry is high. Chicks, fertile eggs, etc. are criss-crossing this country as we speak. In my mind there is no lack of genetic movement. In terms of breeding choices, once you have a few of your own you can mate and evaluate offspring for many, many years without in-breeding. If I add genetic diversity to my flock a list of who has the birds and who has proven to have quality birds is going to matter to me.

In terms of fraud, it always exists. Think about the world around you, a database makes little difference.

There's a zillion things to do to make a great club! I get the feeling that a database is a touchstone for conflict. Think about the above thoughts.