Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[dretd]

I now believe I have pin down the Light vs Dark colored chick males..

it is believed that double barred males will have lighter chick down than females and single barred males, double barred males will have much lighter Pheomelanin(gold colored feathers) and Eumelanin(black colored feathers) making double barred males much lighter than single barred males not only on golder/cream colored feathers(making them look silverish when ig/ig is pressent on same bird) but also on the black feathers of males like in Barred Rock roosters being lighter than females barred rock hens........BUT something is going on in the Cream Creasted Legbar gene pool that some males hatch as dark as females or even darker. Why? they are single barred that is for shure. the why?

its the barring gene, or Barring genes for that matter, there has been secuenced 3 different barring gene B1, B2 and B3, and also a Mutation called dominant sex linked Dilute that makes males nearly white and females normaly barred but this gene is called Bsd.

this genes(B2 and B3) have been found(secuenced) on the Barred rock linke and B1 on barred Leghorn lines...

The australian Plymouth Rock club reconises 2 types of Barred rocks, Dark Barred rocks and Light Barred Rock.. both lines share the same genetic back ground except the Barring gene.

Dark Barred Rock(no difference between males and females in shade of color)



Light Barred rock Male


now here is what I think is going on with Dark male lines from Green Fire Farms, this lines have the Dark Barring gene, and also the "Normal" barring gene found on American Barred Rock lines, What this means phenotypically? that Dark lines will have darker more pronounced black Barring on breast instead of gray and richer lemon colored hackle and saddle color. Why? their dark barring gene is unable to dilute the black feathers to grey colored and is also Unable to dilute the gold/Cream color to Silver as "normal" Barring would..

Dark Barred rooster(from GFF)


so Dark Males(hatched dark) will have darker barring and warm cream colored ornamental feathers
Light Barred Males(hatched Light) will have light grey barring and silverish colored hackles.

Nicalandia: This is a very interesting theory and one that makes a great deal of sense. I do have a couple of questions for you:

-I am not aware of the BR history in foreign lands. Do we know that both the light and dark barring gene exist in England--the examples you have shown are from Australia?

-You have stated "they (the CL males) are for sure single barred" but then go one to describe how a double barred male that is dark simply has the dark barring gene as an explanation for the dark barring instead of him being single barred. Did you mean to type he is for sure double barred instead of single barred? This make more sense to me plus if there were single barred males we would have non barred hens showing up and I haven't heard of this report yet.

-Does this new hypothesis explain why some of the males look like they are gold as they have some dark cream instead of silver and could these males with the dark barring gene actually be cream and just resemble non-dilute males because of this barring? This would be really good news for those that like the darker coloration. It looks like you can tell the difference between the cream/dark barred and the non-cream lightregular barred by looking at the barring in the breast-is this correct?

-Is there a way to test your hypothesis about the barring gene? Will it require outcrossing to Barred Rocks? If so would it be necessary to get a hold of some of the really nice show quality super-slow feathering stock to do the crosses? Are there both Light and Dark Rocks in the US?


Clearly a lot of brain-time went in to this idea. Thanks for the thoughtful theory and photos--and absolutely gorgeous barred rocks, had to repost just cuz of the eye candy.....

 

[nicalandia]

x2

Question: wouldn't all the Cream Lebar males that produce autosexing chcks require double barring? Thanks for bringing up this new angle.

Not if crossed to cream legbar females, single barred males will look like double barred males but without the mark dilution found on most double barred male chicks(except dark barred male lines). females will lack the barred headspot, but on birds with the Dark barring gene, another way to sex them is using the headspot, even if both males and females have the same tone of chick down and even if the females have s well defined headspot, the females will have a very distinctive headtripe, males will have a messi headspot and lack the distinctive headspot

dark male with a headspot but lacking the distinctive headstripe




now a female with a headspot, BUT with a distinctive headstripe



as you can see even if males are dark and females have headspot they are always easy to sex them at hatch using the distinctive headstripe found on females



I dont Believe that these "Dark" Males have single barring on them, I have yet to see a single barred male from GFF, not one. but its quite easy to spot them. here is how to distinguish them,

The Single Barred (impure) males are a darker color than the double barred males (pure). In the UK the breeders circle has been selecting for nearly cuckoo males (no color at all). this tradition may have stemmed from wanting to elimnate any possibility of a single barred males (which would make the line not breed true).

Single Barred male Double Barred


Photos were taken from http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7967614&start=15

 

[nicalandia]

sorry I meant to say, the dark males are NOT single barred, sorry guys, but they are the "Dark Barred"

Nope... The dark cockerels are double barred. We have been breeding them for over two years in the U.S. and have F1, F2 and some people F3 offspring. They are double barred and breeding true.

 

[nicalandia]

Nope... The dark cockerels are double barred. We have been breeding them for over two years in the U.S. and have F1, F2 and some people F3 offspring. They are double barred and breeding true. I did consider the multiple barring genes and have a photos of a young cockerel that would support that theory. You might want to finally take a look at the photo progression of cockerels of different down type in 2012. When ever you are ready to see it PM me an email address and I will send you a pdf attachment. I am not sure that it will fit into your conclusions though. You can comment when you see it.

I spent about 4 months trying to figure the down type the beginning of 2012 then decided to give it a rest. I went back to it at the end of last year got an answer from one of our own BYC educators that makes perfect sense. That is that there are two e-loci at play in the Legbar lines. One that produces a dark down and one that produces a light down. The difference is most notable in the cockerels, but also visible on the pullets (especially if you have both types to do a side by side comparison). Comparing light type pullets to dark type cockerels or light type cockerel to dark type pullets makes things very confusing. That is why we are seeing some pullets that are darker that some cockerels. People are not comparing apples to apples.

I do not know the genetics of the Jaerhon chicken breed, but feel that what we see in the Legbars lines could be the same thing as what is in the Jaerhon lines. That is a distinct dark down type and a distinct light down type which is recessive. The Jearhon is a double barred breed that produces light and dark chicks so that comparison is perfectly valid. Maybe someone knows the answer to this. Do the Jearhon have two e-loci, or two barring types. What genetically is different between the light and dark Jaers varieties? Would the Legbars be the same?

No...I have not proved that there are two down types, but yes I have proved that the difference is NOT due to single barred cockerels. No it have not proved that the difference is not due to a color modifier, but yes I have proved that if it is a color modifier that modifier is so subtle it can not be accurately distinguish in the adult plumage. I have seen one cockerel that reminded me of the B^ds. I grew him out and he was NOT an different in adult plumage color from his full brother. Below is the photos of him the cockerel with the barring type in question. Can anyone comment on its barring type. Does anyone have photo comparisons between the Dark and Light Plymouth Rock. The information I had on that breed was oviously wrong. Plymouth Rock breeders told me that they used single barred males for exhibition because the barring on those cockerels was more clear. Some of the show breeders may not know there are different barring types. The one I am referring two was under the impression that their was just one type of barring but single and double barring that created the light and dark barring on cockerels.

Below is "Obie". He is the cockerel that had the barring type that reminded me of the B^ds. The stripes are much wider that the barring of the other 20+ cockerels I have seen. I don't have the adult photos of Obie down loaded at the moment but can say that he was very colorful with lots of chestnut on the shoulders and gold colored saddles and hackles as at 20 weeks old. Comments? Oh...Obie was the "dark down type". My understanding was that the different barring types were manifest by the width of the barring not the down colors. Do we have any chick down photos of these different barring types to show how they looking in breeds that are known to have them?

oh and thanks for the reading, I dont use spell check..sorry, but I meant that the "Dark" males have the "Dark Barring" gene and are NOT single barred. I have yet to see a single barred male from GFF.

Edit. I dont believe this has to do with different e+ loci as much as different type of barring, as you can see from the Dark jaerhons and Dark barred barred rocks, this is independently from e loci. but more on the Barring gene. and as dark barring wont dilute the black pigment it will also wont dilute the gold tone as much as light barring gene does on a s+/s+ ig/ig birds, so dark males will have the lemon/straw colored hackles instead of the silver one founds on light barred males

 

[nicalandia]

Nicalandia: This is a very interesting theory and one that makes a great deal of sense. I do have a couple of questions for you:

-I am not aware of the BR history in foreign lands. Do we know that both the light and dark barring gene exist in England--the examples you have shown are from Australia?

-You have stated "they (the CL males) are for sure single barred" but then go one to describe how a double barred male that is dark simply has the dark barring gene as an explanation for the dark barring instead of him being single barred. Did you mean to type he is for sure double barred instead of single barred? This make more sense to me plus if there were single barred males we would have non barred hens showing up and I haven't heard of this report yet.

-Does this new hypothesis explain why some of the males look like they are gold as they have some dark cream instead of silver and could these males with the dark barring gene actually be cream and just resemble non-dilute males because of this barring? This would be really good news for those that like the darker coloration. It looks like you can tell the difference between the cream/dark barred and the non-cream lightregular barred by looking at the barring in the breast-is this correct?

-Is there a way to test your hypothesis about the barring gene? Will it require outcrossing to Barred Rocks? If so would it be necessary to get a hold of some of the really nice show quality super-slow feathering stock to do the crosses? Are there both Light and Dark Rocks in the US?


Clearly a lot of brain-time went in to this idea. Thanks for the thoughtful theory and photos--and absolutely gorgeous barred rocks, had to repost just cuz of the eye candy.....

sorry I meant the Dark males are NOT single barred. let me see if I am able to edit it. now I hope the meaning of my orinal post is not lost due to my lack of typing skills, now dark males will undoubtedly have a richer color than the light barred males

 

[ChicKat]

sorry I meant the Dark males are NOT single barred. let me see if I am able to edit it. now I hope the meaning of my orinal post is not lost due to my lack of typing skills, now dark males will undoubtedly have a richer color than the light barred males

Thanks for the clarification. It does make sense that there are genetics from dark barred Plymouth Rocks and Light Barred Plymouth Rocks. I have seen light barred Plymouth Rock males in the USA, but seldom dark Barred- like your great picts. from Austrialia of the dark barred male.

This is something I wish we could get genetically tested in a laboratory to see if a particluar male had a B1, B2, B3 or the other B -- or a combination in his barring genes. :O)

 

[nicalandia]

Thanks for the clarification. It does make sense that there are genetics from dark barred Plymouth Rocks and Light Barred Plymouth Rocks. I have seen light barred Plymouth Rock males in the USA, but seldom dark Barred- like your great picts. from Austrialia of the dark barred male.

This is something I wish we could get genetically tested in a laboratory to see if a particluar male had a B1, B2, B3 or the other B -- or a combination in his barring genes. :O)

thanks, the "Dark Barred" males hatch Dark aswell, just like dark CCL. now I dont believe we "Need" to secuence these dark males genome, but an outcross to Black Leghorn or other black breeds should do the trick.

Cross a known Dark male(dark at hatch) with a black female. the F1 pullets will inherit his "Dark" Barring gene. also the F1 males will inherit it. do a simple F1xF1 cross and be in the look out for "Dark" double barred males. they should look dark at hatch like single barred males, but their barring would show up alot better than single barred males, some may even use this "Dark" Barring gene to improve the Red barred breeds or to create the Dark Barred Rocks once found in the US such a long time ago

nice pics of Dark Barred Bantams...
http://www.thechickencoop.com.au/plymouth-rock-dark-barred-bantams

 

[robnorman24]

Welsummers and cream legbars.

 

[FridayYet]

How cute! I can't wait 'till I find some Wellies of my own

Looks like a great hatch.

 

[ChicKat]

thanks, the "Dark Barred" males hatch Dark aswell, just like dark CCL. now I dont believe we "Need" to secuence these dark males genome, but an outcross to Black Leghorn or other black breeds should do the trick.

Cross a known Dark male(dark at hatch) with a black female. the F1 pullets will inherit his "Dark" Barring gene. also the F1 males will inherit it. do a simple F1xF1 cross and be in the look out for "Dark" double barred males. they should look dark at hatch like single barred males, but their barring would show up alot better than single barred males, some may even use this "Dark" Barring gene to improve the Red barred breeds or to create the Dark Barred Rocks once found in the US such a long time ago

nice pics of Dark Barred Bantams...
http://www.thechickencoop.com.au/plymouth-rock-dark-barred-bantams

y' know..... wouldn't a lab test be quicker than breeding and growing out a lot of chicks that would be unwanted in the end? It would take 2-generations to get to the results of F1xF1 - and then 5-6 months to grow out to see if egg color was affected in what way -- and a lot of birds that would be hybrids....but not near my goal. --- Just sayin'