Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the SOP' started by redchicken9, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. GaryDean26

    GaryDean26 Chicken Czar

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    The Leghorn is a fast feather breed [k+/k+]. My understanding is that the Legbar should be a fast feather breed too (SOP committee correct me if I am wrong). For clearly defined barring you need a slow feather breed like the Plymouth Rock. So no, I don't think I would call this clearly defined barring. I don't know which is required in the SOP though but am guesing the fast feathered birds are the ideal for the Legbar and that the fine barring of the Plymought Rock is not required..
     
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  2. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    thanks for the info, but I was asking more of a clearly defined as clearly defined black and white barring, as opposed to being greyish barring, I see the females SOP dont call for a clearly defined barring, Crele OEG pullets can have clearly defined barring without having the slow feathering gene,

    so to refrase my question what does the SOP calls for Barring/Cuckoo effect of the males breast?
     
  3. KPenley

    KPenley Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Breast: Dark gray, evenly barred, well defined outline.
     
  4. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    If memory serves - females are 'softly barred'.

    ETA - whoops - faintly barred is the correct verbiage

    Here is the color section:
    '

    COLOR -- FEMALE
    Comb, Face, and Wattles: Bright red.

    Beak: Yellow.

    Eyes: Reddish bay.

    Ear-lobes: Enamel white.

    Head: Plumage, cream and gray.

    Crest: Cream and gray, some chestnut permissible.
    Neck: Hackle—cream, softly barred gray.
    Front of neck—salmon.

    Wings: Fronts, Bows and Coverts—silver-gray, faintly barred.
    Primaries—gray, peppered.
    Secondaries—gray, very faintly barred.

    Back: Gray, softly barred.

    Tail: Main Tail and Coverts—silver-gray, faintly barred.

    Breast: Salmon, well defined in outline.

    Body and Fluff: Silver-gray, indistinctly barred.

    Legs and Toes: Yellow.

    Under-Color of All Sections: Silver-gray.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  5. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    most UK males look like below male, while looking silverishnear silver) these males dont have the well defined black barred breast, they look almost light cuckoo.

    Uk Male
    [​IMG]
    just like the Scar Poultry CCL http://www.scartoppoultry.co.uk/#/cream-legbar/4568038979


    now here is how a Silver/Golden Crele males looks like,

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by texas75563 [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    the Silver/Golden male is clearly single barred(can see on its tail) but wanted to show a bird with similar color to the cream legbar males found on the USA

    now here is a Silver Crele Leghorn male see the notable contrast on color(dark breast) this male is clearly double barred
    [​IMG]
     
  7. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    I now believe I have pin down the Light vs Dark colored chick males..


    it is believed that double barred males will have lighter chick down than females and single barred males, double barred males will have much lighter Pheomelanin(gold colored feathers) and Eumelanin(black colored feathers) making double barred males much lighter than single barred males not only on golder/cream colored feathers(making them look silverish when ig/ig is pressent on same bird) but also on the black feathers of males like in Barred Rock roosters being lighter than females barred rock hens........BUT something is going on in the Cream Creasted Legbar gene pool that some males hatch as dark as females or even darker. Why? they are NOT single barred that is for shure. then why?


    its the barring gene, or Barring genes for that matter, there has been secuenced 3 different barring gene B1, B2 and B3, and also a Mutation called dominant sex linked Dilute that makes males nearly white and females normaly barred but this gene is called Bsd.


    this genes(B2 and B3) have been found(secuenced) on the Barred rock linke and B1 on barred Leghorn lines...



    The australian Plymouth Rock club reconises 2 types of Barred rocks, Dark Barred rocks and Light Barred Rock.. both lines share the same genetic back ground except the Barring gene.

    Dark Barred Rock(no difference between males and females in shade of color)
    [​IMG]



    Light Barred rock Male
    [​IMG]



    both lines were tested for homozygosity for Barring.


    now here is what I think is going on with Dark male lines from Green Fire Farms, this lines have the Dark Barring gene, and also the "Normal" barring gene found on American Barred Rock lines, What this means phenotypically? that Dark lines will have darker more pronounced black Barring on breast instead of gray and richer lemon colored hackle and saddle color. Why? their dark barring gene is unable to dilute the black feathers to grey colored and is also Unable to dilute the gold/Cream color to Silver as "normal" Barring would..


    how about those grey light barred males in the UK that look silver? they carry the Light Barring gene, this gene dilutes the black barring to light grey barring and gold/cream feathers to silver looking feathers.

    here is an example of a very pale looking male, note that his breast barring is light grey colored unlike the Silver Crele leghorn male shown in previous post
    [​IMG]


    Dark Barred rooster(from GFF)
    [​IMG]



    now lets go back at henks double barred male. he carries the Normal Barring gene found on american rock breeds, the double barring dilutes its hackles and saddles to a diluted tone of gold found on alot on American cream legbars, But his barring(breast, tail) is of a lighter Shade, what this means is if he was dark barred he would have richer gold tones like single barred males or dark barred males..
    [​IMG]





    so Dark Males(hatched dark) will have darker barring and warm cream colored ornamental feathers
    Light Barred Males(hatched Light) will have light grey barring and silverish colored hackles.

    I would assume that B1/B2 males would look right in the middle just like normal barred males(henk examples). this will also affect females,


    that is ofcourse an over simplified examples as Red enhancers are not taking into account here and could play a factor.

    for example a double barred Wyandote silver crele male(note the light grey barring) with red enhancers will still show them even if S/S and B/B are pressent. note how his gold tones are still showing despite of having light barring, without the red enhancers he would have look silver grey barred


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  8. lonnyandrinda

    lonnyandrinda Overrun With Chickens

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    Very interesting! I will have to look into that, I had no idea there were different barring genes. This does make sense, but opens up a whole new box of questions...
     
  9. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    x2

    Nicalandia this is a fascinating conclusion to your research. Perhaps the different barring genes may also account for the fact that some female cream legbar chicks have a faint white headspot and some don't. Question: wouldn't all the Cream Lebar males that produce autosexing chcks require double barring? Thanks for bringing up this new angle.
     
  10. GaryDean26

    GaryDean26 Chicken Czar

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    Nope... The dark cockerels are double barred. We have been breeding them for over two years in the U.S. and have F1, F2 and some people F3 offspring. They are double barred and breeding true. I did consider the multiple barring genes and have a photos of a young cockerel that would support that theory. You might want to finally take a look at the photo progression of cockerels of different down type in 2012. When ever you are ready to see it PM me an email address and I will send you a pdf attachment. I am not sure that it will fit into your conclusions though. You can comment when you see it.

    I spent about 4 months trying to figure the down type the beginning of 2012 then decided to give it a rest. I went back to it at the end of last year got an answer from one of our own BYC educators that makes perfect sense. That is that there are two e-loci at play in the Legbar lines. One that produces a dark down and one that produces a light down. The difference is most notable in the cockerels, but also visible on the pullets (especially if you have both types to do a side by side comparison). Comparing light type pullets to dark type cockerels or light type cockerel to dark type pullets makes things very confusing. That is why we are seeing some pullets that are darker that some cockerels. People are not comparing apples to apples.

    I do not know the genetics of the Jaerhon chicken breed, but feel that what we see in the Legbars lines could be the same thing as what is in the Jaerhon lines. That is a distinct dark down type and a distinct light down type which is recessive. The Jearhon is a double barred breed that produces light and dark chicks so that comparison is perfectly valid. Maybe someone knows the answer to this. Do the Jearhon have two e-loci, or two barring types. What genetically is different between the light and dark Jaers varieties? Would the Legbars be the same?

    No...I have not proved that there are two down types, but yes I have proved that the difference is NOT due to single barred cockerels. No it have not proved that the difference is not due to a color modifier, but yes I have proved that if it is a color modifier that modifier is so subtle it can not be accurately distinguish in the adult plumage. I have seen one cockerel that reminded me of the B^ds. I grew him out and he was NOT an different in adult plumage color from his full brother. Below is the photos of him the cockerel with the barring type in question. Can anyone comment on its barring type. Does anyone have photo comparisons between the Dark and Light Plymouth Rock. The information I had on that breed was oviously wrong. Plymouth Rock breeders told me that they used single barred males for exhibition because the barring on those cockerels was more clear. Some of the show breeders may not know there are different barring types. The one I am referring two was under the impression that their was just one type of barring but single and double barring that created the light and dark barring on cockerels.

    Below is "Obie". He is the cockerel that had the barring type that reminded me of the B^ds. The stripes are much wider that the barring of the other 20+ cockerels I have seen. I don't have the adult photos of Obie down loaded at the moment but can say that he was very colorful with lots of chestnut on the shoulders and gold colored saddles and hackles as at 20 weeks old. Comments? Oh...Obie was the "dark down type". My understanding was that the different barring types were manifest by the width of the barring not the down colors. Do we have any chick down photos of these different barring types to show how they looking in breeds that are known to have them?

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013

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