Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the SOP' started by redchicken9, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. redchicken9

    redchicken9 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Mar 14, 2012
    Northern California
    Normanack, Would you be interested in writing up a background history for the cream legbar? and/or let us know what other base information breed clubs have on their sites? Let me know if either idea works for you.
    Dahlisgrams, How could we do that? For now if you'd keep a running list of who has checked in that would be great. I'm wondering if people want to give personal information out, perhaps later on a CL site.
  2. redchicken9

    redchicken9 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Mar 14, 2012
    Northern California
    Harriehomemaker, glad you're here!
    Thanks, Phage!
  3. Laingcroft

    Laingcroft Chillin' With My Peeps

    Nov 22, 2011
    Not sure what I can do to help at this point, my only experience is with K9 clubs. Still learning my way around the chickens insofar as standards, showing and breeding.

    That said, I do have some questions to ponder.

    1 - can we assume that Greenfire was the original and only importer of Cream Legbars? This has been a question with Basque hens where there is some indication that Greenfire was not the original North American importer and that the early stock may have been crossed with another Spanish breed the Pendesenca.

    2 - Most, but not all of the imported birds are crested. Assumption is that this means both male and female. The crests do not seem to be as large as the polish and other crested breeds, but more than this: (this is a picture of one of my hens, I consider her NOT crested.)

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Perhaps adding language describing the crest size and shape. Also, many of the photos posted online do not show "cream" crests per se. They are more barred like the hackles in shades of dark brown to reddish brown (chestnut).

    3 - Even though the UK standard posted above and on The Legbar Thread indicates the Cream Legbar lays blue, green or olive eggs, most sources list them with blue eggs. Other Legbars (Gold and Silver) lay white eggs and Isbars lay green. Does anyone have Legbars (known to be direct descended from the original imported stock) lay any color other than blue? If everyone's imported all lay blue eggs, perhaps we should restrict the US standard to blue eggs to weed out the crosses as happened to the Ameraucana/Americana/Easter Eggers. I'd hate to see that acrimony affect the Legbars.

    4 - Does anyone have a photo or links to photos of the ideal Cream Legbar per the standard above? From the written description, my Cream Legbar rooster isn't a cream legbar at all. He is crele colored with chestnut barred saddle, predominantly cream with some chestnut, blending to dark gray barring in the hackles. The description above, with mostly cream and grey seems more like a cuckoo colored bird to me, with some autosomal red leakage (chestnut smudges permissible and some salmon in the breast.)
  4. Dahlisgrams

    Dahlisgrams Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jun 16, 2012
    The Big Apple
    Okay, I'll keep a list of those who reply to this thread and note if they've offered assistance in a particular area. Perhaps it could be expanded to include more information in the future. It seems like a good place to start as this information may come in handy.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  5. blackbirds13

    blackbirds13 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jun 29, 2010
    Southern New Hampshire
    I'm in...not sure where I can be used. Good with editing photos, creating graphics - I can do logos.... Perhaps I can help record opinions, thoughts, ideas and preferences in regards to some specific part of the standard? Willing to carry some water when I can.
    Thanks for getting this going Redchicken9
    1 person likes this.
  6. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    What a great group has already 'showed up' for the process.

    Maybe we could borrow ideas from the best.....I was looking last night on line for some other breed clubs. I'm wondering if we could jump-start the cream legbar club by modeling on another club. I was looking at Ameraucana Club. I'm sure that there are others. For example, the constitution, the objectives, the "officer duties", the structure of the country....divided into regions. Also I was checking out the APA association website.

    I also had heard the suggestion that we use the existing UK SOP, maybe we could directly ask someone in UK to go to their library to reference the SOP for us. Thus get the verbatum SOP to evaluate. Since that is the source of the birds....seems to make sense. JMO. I will send a PM tonight - at least maybe that will move that part of Redchicken's idea forward.

    Interesting thing that was said on the Ameraucana club site that 'no birds meet the standard of perfection' or something to that effect, 'but that is the ideal that we are breeding toward'. So if we think our birds aren't qualified, because they aren't 100% match to the UK SOP or the SOP we adopt for the USA, we are missing the point of what it is for. It is the target to try to achieve, not the starting point.

    Also. I have been wondering about the color of eggs. I think that the 'blue egg gene' would be indicated by the shell color matching identically inside and outside, thus giving no brown coating to the shell. In the background of cream legbars, the Plymouth rock could contribute some brown bloom, so I can see how they allowed the shades of olive. But you get into some tricky things....what my eye sees as blue or green someone else may see as the opposite. That is one reason why I think that the breed color cards were so valuable. To me they say "Hey Look!!! here are all the colors of egg-shell that the blue egg gene produces". Is there anyone we know of in the USA that has a color that resembles olive, or are we all pretty much on the egg charts that are shown on feathersite?

    I think my eggs are around C15 but sometimes in some light they do look blue, and in some lights and some photos green--- however still on that set of charts. My opinion is that any egg on that chart should be 'accepted' - and individual breeders, growers could breed toward the color (or colours) that they want. I wonder too if chicken colorists see 'silver' chickens and 'gold' chickens - a little different color than the crayola box silver and gold. So chicken coloration is it's own language.

    I'm looking forward to working with the BYC members who are aboard already and hope that the rest of the intersted parties will join the working group.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  7. CarolJ

    CarolJ Dogwood Trace Farm

    Jun 3, 2011
    Middle Tennessee
    I am here to participate, and I will do whatever I can. I need to learn so much more! I have a small flock of cream legbars (3 hens, 1 rooster) that I purchased as chicks from GFF. They have been laying for about a month. I incubated some of their first eggs and have five cute and very hardy chicks that hatched this past week. I love this breed - the rooster is spectacular, and I love the hens' coloring.
  8. dak

    dak geek dvm

    Mar 21, 2010
    A couple general suggestions,

    1. Try to format the Brit standard to mimic standards/wording found in the APA standard of perfection.

    2. See what the Maran breeders did to incorporate the French standard to an APA one.

    3. Try to find a guide/sponser who is well placed in the APA. Certain things will raise their hackles such as calling a color by a new name when it already is recognized by another name like the Lavender/Self-Blue fight. I'm not saying this is a CL problem, but tradition is a big deal with the APA/ABA.
    1 person likes this.
  9. lonnyandrinda

    lonnyandrinda Overrun With Chickens

    May 11, 2012
    Coweta, OK
    I'm here and willing to contribute. Busy SAHM but I do have decent computer skills/photoshop/etc, have worked in minor advertising in the past. Good with numbers- math degree. Any way I can help I am glad to help.

    I agree if you go over to the Black Copper Marans pages and read through, they have been working really hard the last few years as it was just accepted here in the US, I think our path will somewhat mimic theirs. Here is where they started just after the SOP was announced, and much discussion ensued on what it meant. May give some insight on how we want to word a proposed SOP for CL.

    I thought the diagram in this thread was really awesome, too- FBCM have had a lot of problems with the bird body type being not quite there. This diagram on the last set of posts I think is invaluable for FBCM.

    Someone already mentioned the format of the Ameraucana club, here is the Maran club. I love that they have a section for national shows and winners so everyone can SEE what these birds should look like. Not just how one person likes to breed them, but how they must be bred to be good enough to win at shows. (Yes I understand the problems this entails with judges objectivity, etc, but it's a start).

    Also I know there is at least one person involved with APA who has been posting on one of the Maran threads above, I don't know if it would be worth shooting him a PM to see if he would be interested in getting involved or at least consulting for us.

    I know a lot of this is all a long ways down the road. But I am excited to be a part of it!

  10. GaryDean26

    GaryDean26 Chicken Czar

    Dec 22, 2011
    McAlester, OK
    My Coop
    I found my way over here. Thanks babymakes6!

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