Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[puglady]

I was looking at the pics provided of the UK girls. My 6 are all much darker and did come directly from GFF in Aug. I had a light colored boy 2 months older than the girls but he was always small, a failure to thrive issue, I culled him this morning as he was never strong and hardy. The other boys (3) are lighter in color than the girls but still not near the pics above. It'll be interesting to see what stardards are adopted as the line in general here seems to be darker than in the UK. If this light of a color is adopted I'll need to be doing lots of breeding and culling. I'd like to see a range of acceptable blue eggs put forth for a standard. I'm watching this thread with lots of interest!

 

[stoneunhenged]

When considering what your new club should be promoting, the excerpt from an email to me from a friend in the UK is worth considering. I had emailed him to locate some legbar stock from birds that had won ribbons in large shows. My friend is an accomplished poultry expert in the UK. Here's what he said:

Have no real contribution to make on this one, other than the
observation that prize winning stock does not always equate to viable
fertility or consistent hatching quality of chicks. I know some breeders
here in UK often keep two strains, one for showing and one for
preserving fertility. With Norfolk Greys it has been known for prize
winning stock to be virtual duds in breeding pen, ditto their siblings.

With Cream Legbars, if I were in business, my choice would be to source
stock that is of acceptable show quality but has a good record for egg
quality of colour, shell and numbers. Possibly not the easiest of tasks.
There again, the Cream Legbars chief merit in UK seems to be its laying
capacity coupled with the egg colour and size. It may get out competed
by the Americauna/Araucana in US, especially if someone is producing
strains with good laying records.

 

[KPenley]

Jordan Farms another Rare Breed Farm is also offering CLB's just started for Oct, 2012.
So maybe we should check with them . Did they import them from UK?

Checking into it, will update when I hear back. Gorgeous birds!

 

[GaryDean26]

4). Collect preferences. You need to indicate if you feel the standard should be adapted in full, provisionally, or modified, and in what areas. If need be I will break the standard apart and we will discuss from head to toe, point by point.

I lost one of my chicks that I just got Sept 17, the dark one.

My ? is this , I know for Sure we have Light IE gray birds, chestnut birds IE dark birds and White birds. All coming from the lines of Green
Fire Farms Are there any other Colors out there? Also both mine were showing crests , Is the reason the British dropped the (Crested) Cream Legbar from the name because some do not have crests?

The "Crest" was originally used to distinguish the strain of Legbars had the Blue egg genes from the strain of Legbars that didn't have the blue egg gene. The term Crest was dropped because the white egg strain became extinct. The crest has always been a crucial feature of the blue egg strain of Cream Legbars.

 

[GaryDean26]

Jordan Farms another Rare Breed Farm is also offering CLB's just started for Oct, 2012.
So maybe we should check with them . Did they import them from UK?

Jordan Farm's BYC handle is PamperedPoulty. They have contributed to the Legbar Thread. They are well know to have Green Fire Stock. The only Non-GreenFire source of the Cream Legbar that I am aware of is River Rock Family Farm in Utah. They got an import license to bring hatching eggs to the USA from England in 2011. Their web page is below.

http://utahwarmblood.com/River_Rock_Family_Farm_Hens.html


Over a lengthy phone conversation this summer River Rock Family Farm confirmed that they are NOT selling to the public at this time. It is safe to assume that everyone in the USA except Rock River Family Farm with Cream Legbars has GFF bloodlines.

Oh....H&H Poultry in Burnet, TX list that they have their own blood line of Cream Legbars too. Their blood line was started from Plymouth Rocks and Brown Leghorns about 6 years ago. They wanted to use Ameracauna and Crested breeds in the USA to breed to the Cream Legbar standards. The H&H Poultry Bloodline is NOT an English Import. They are now have GreenFire stock that they plan to cross with their Gold Legbars. The H&H blood line is NOT one that I would feel qualifies for a Cream Legbar registry.

1 - can we assume that Greenfire was the original and only importer of Cream Legbars? This has been a question with Basque hens where there is some indication that Greenfire was not the original North American importer and that the early stock may have been crossed with another Spanish breed the Pendesenca.

Yes...We can assume that GFF is the Original on only importer of the Cream Legbars.

 

[KPenley]

The "Crest" was originally used to distinguish the strain of Legbars had the Blue egg genes from the strain of Legbars that didn't have the blue egg gene. The term Crest was dropped because the white egg strain became extinct. The crest has always been a crucial trade mark of the Cream Legbar.

Why would GFF bring in an non-crested line then? To increase egg production? Thank you for your information concerning Jordan Farms and River Rock Family Farm

 

[fowlman01]

This is a breed that I am unfamiliar with, but Cheryl Cohen has some and has sold some in this area, so I have seen them. I believe hers are from GFF. If this is a utility breed it should be bred to retain that utility. I have never seen a breed that could not win in a show and still produce as it was meant to produce. I am not saying that people don't concentrate on one or the other, but when these breeds originated they did the job they were designed to do. What happens is that along the way the breeders select for either utility or show and that is where they make the mistake. The Marans had that problem but it is turning around. There are show birds now that lay dark eggs.

Write a history, write a Standard (in the format that the APA already uses) and coordinate breeders to raise birds for the qualifying meet. I can give you suggestions or direction along the way. Generally the biggest hurdle is everyone agreeing on the breed description.

Walt

 

[Phage]

I can help with the APA admission requirements etc. It will take at least 5 years to get them in the SOP and probably longer as the breed is so new. I was in on the Marans qualifications and all other new breeds or variety for the last 25 years.

Walt Leonard
Chairman of the APA Standard Committee.

Walt Thank you so much for your help here. Having you on board with the cream legbars will make ALL the difference in making the correct choices, and I believe finally betting a great version of this bird accepted to the APA.

THANKY YOU SO MUCH!

 

[debs_flock]

Quote:

This is a breed that I am unfamiliar with, but Cheryl Cohen has some and has sold some in this area, so I have seen them. I believe hers are from GFF. If this is a utility breed it should be bred to retain that utility. I have never seen a breed that could not win in a show and still produce as it was meant to produce. I am not saying that people don't concentrate on one or the other, but when these breeds originated they did the job they were designed to do. What happens is that along the way the breeders select for either utility or show and that is where they make the mistake. The Marans had that problem but it is turning around. There are show birds now that lay dark eggs.

Write a history, write a Standard (in the format that the APA already uses) and coordinate breeders to raise birds for the qualifying meet. I can give you suggestions or direction along the way. Generally the biggest hurdle is everyone agreeing on the breed description.

Walt

I was going to suggest that we contact Walt, but he showed up on his own.....................I think it's fate! Thanks Walt!

Deb

 

[redchicken9]

All right, looks like things are movin' and shakin'! Some multiquotes below.

• All of you, thank-you for joining in here. I am listing the following as priority discussions (not to preclude others, just to expand these).

• We follow the APA format. If there is a template, please post or PM it (Walt or Fowlman01). Else wise, we will mimic in format, language and style.

• Omaeve, I love seeing who's who and feel that this forum is well-honored by who has shown up thus far. I may not be the best at a registry, but think this is very important. I am going to stay single tracked on moving the SOP discussion. That will keep me busy. How should we handle who is who? Do we want to add real names on this site, or send them to one individual. Feedback here. I am open any way that is chosen.

• There will be many parts of the CL to discuss. I propose that by the end of the day I will cut the standard apart, give numbers and make sections (ie. egg color, legs, head) and re-post. This will help indicate post that refer to these sections.

• I think egg color is a discussion, any and all current owners with egg laying CL, should participate in. Actually, anyone with interest, let's focus and comment on this today. There is an indication towards blue or shades of blue/green. Do we have any knowledge of other color here or in UK? Can anyone foresee a reason why excluding, for example olive would impact the breed, it's past history, or future legacy?

• Anyone with connections to the BYC? Can we continue using this site, but establish our intentions to use information, language, intellect on a future cream legbar breed site. I don't have the knowledge here. I'd like to see BYC approval or blessings on this endeavor.

• The door is wide-open for those who want to start a club site. ChicKat and Blackbirds13 have shown interest in this. I suspect there's a good pool of help on this. Should we keep both endeavors on one site or start a second forum for this?

Let's keep going!!

Not sure what I can do to help at this point, my only experience is with K9 clubs. Still learning my way around the chickens insofar as standards, showing and breeding.

That said, I do have some questions to ponder.

1 - can we assume that Greenfire was the original and only importer of Cream Legbars? This has been a question with Basque hens where there is some indication that Greenfire was not the original North American importer and that the early stock may have been crossed with another Spanish breed the Pendesenca.

2 - Most, but not all of the imported birds are crested. Assumption is that this means both male and female. The crests do not seem to be as large as the polish and other crested breeds, but more than this: (this is a picture of one of my hens, I consider her NOT crested.)



Perhaps adding language describing the crest size and shape. Also, many of the photos posted online do not show "cream" crests per se. They are more barred like the hackles in shades of dark brown to reddish brown (chestnut).

3 - Even though the UK standard posted above and on The Legbar Thread indicates the Cream Legbar lays blue, green or olive eggs, most sources list them with blue eggs. Other Legbars (Gold and Silver) lay white eggs and Isbars lay green. Does anyone have Legbars (known to be direct descended from the original imported stock) lay any color other than blue? If everyone's imported all lay blue eggs, perhaps we should restrict the US standard to blue eggs to weed out the crosses as happened to the Ameraucana/Americana/Easter Eggers. I'd hate to see that acrimony affect the Legbars.

4 - Does anyone have a photo or links to photos of the ideal Cream Legbar per the standard above? From the written description, my Cream Legbar rooster isn't a cream legbar at all. He is crele colored with chestnut barred saddle, predominantly cream with some chestnut, blending to dark gray barring in the hackles. The description above, with mostly cream and grey seems more like a cuckoo colored bird to me, with some autosomal red leakage (chestnut smudges permissible and some salmon in the breast.)

What a great group has already 'showed up' for the process.

Maybe we could borrow ideas from the best.....I was looking last night on line for some other breed clubs. I'm wondering if we could jump-start the cream legbar club by modeling on another club. I was looking at Ameraucana Club. I'm sure that there are others. For example, the constitution, the objectives, the "officer duties", the structure of the country....divided into regions. Also I was checking out the APA association website.

I also had heard the suggestion that we use the existing UK SOP, maybe we could directly ask someone in UK to go to their library to reference the SOP for us. Thus get the verbatum SOP to evaluate. Since that is the source of the birds....seems to make sense. JMO. I will send a PM tonight - at least maybe that will move that part of Redchicken's idea forward.

Interesting thing that was said on the Ameraucana club site that 'no birds meet the standard of perfection' or something to that effect, 'but that is the ideal that we are breeding toward'. So if we think our birds aren't qualified, because they aren't 100% match to the UK SOP or the SOP we adopt for the USA, we are missing the point of what it is for. It is the target to try to achieve, not the starting point.

Also. I have been wondering about the color of eggs. I think that the 'blue egg gene' would be indicated by the shell color matching identically inside and outside, thus giving no brown coating to the shell. In the background of cream legbars, the Plymouth rock could contribute some brown bloom, so I can see how they allowed the shades of olive. But you get into some tricky things....what my eye sees as blue or green someone else may see as the opposite. That is one reason why I think that the breed color cards were so valuable. To me they say "Hey Look!!! here are all the colors of egg-shell that the blue egg gene produces". Is there anyone we know of in the USA that has a color that resembles olive, or are we all pretty much on the egg charts that are shown on feathersite? http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Arau/BRKArauEgg.html

I think my eggs are around C15 but sometimes in some light they do look blue, and in some lights and some photos green--- however still on that set of charts. My opinion is that any egg on that chart should be 'accepted' - and individual breeders, growers could breed toward the color (or colours) that they want. I wonder too if chicken colorists see 'silver' chickens and 'gold' chickens - a little different color than the crayola box silver and gold. So chicken coloration is it's own language.

I'm looking forward to working with the BYC members who are aboard already and hope that the rest of the intersted parties will join the working group.

I can help with the APA admission requirements etc. It will take at least 5 years to get them in the SOP and probably longer as the breed is so new. I was in on the Marans qualifications and all other new breeds or variety for the last 25 years.

Walt Leonard
Chairman of the APA Standard Committee.

I think we should pm you with real name, byc name, add, phone,e-mail, and number of chickens and source of chickens to have all this info in one place for now.

When considering what your new club should be promoting, the excerpt from an email to me from a friend in the UK is worth considering. I had emailed him to locate some legbar stock from birds that had won ribbons in large shows. My friend is an accomplished poultry expert in the UK. Here's what he said:

Have no real contribution to make on this one, other than the
observation that prize winning stock does not always equate to viable
fertility or consistent hatching quality of chicks. I know some breeders
here in UK often keep two strains, one for showing and one for
preserving fertility. With Norfolk Greys it has been known for prize
winning stock to be virtual duds in breeding pen, ditto their siblings.

With Cream Legbars, if I were in business, my choice would be to source
stock that is of acceptable show quality but has a good record for egg
quality of colour, shell and numbers. Possibly not the easiest of tasks.
There again, the Cream Legbars chief merit in UK seems to be its laying
capacity coupled with the egg colour and size. It may get out competed
by the Americauna/Araucana in US, especially if someone is producing
strains with good laying records.

The "Crest" was originally used to distinguish the strain of Legbars had the Blue egg genes from the strain of Legbars that didn't have the blue egg gene. The term Crest was dropped because the white egg strain became extinct. The crest has always been a crucial feature of the blue egg strain of Cream Legbars.

This is a breed that I am unfamiliar with, but Cheryl Cohen has some and has sold some in this area, so I have seen them. I believe hers are from GFF. If this is a utility breed it should be bred to retain that utility. I have never seen a breed that could not win in a show and still produce as it was meant to produce. I am not saying that people don't concentrate on one or the other, but when these breeds originated they did the job they were designed to do. What happens is that along the way the breeders select for either utility or show and that is where they make the mistake. The Marans had that problem but it is turning around. There are show birds now that lay dark eggs.

Write a history, write a Standard (in the format that the APA already uses) and coordinate breeders to raise birds for the qualifying meet. I can give you suggestions or direction along the way. Generally the biggest hurdle is everyone agreeing on the breed description.

Walt