Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[GaryDean26]

First in the ASP each attribute is described for shape, then for color. [GaryDean26] OK

This is the way I am looking at moderately. It means in relationship with the rest of the body. I don't want it to be used in excess, so if we can say the comb is large, let's say it. For the body length the moderately long was often used, as my birds are more medium lengthed., but the BPS says long back. I feel like the moderate is a soft descriptor, but still useful. Personally, since there are legbars, our form should be the same or very similar. [GaryDean26] Okay I though that this might be a comparison to other breeds, and since I don't work with many breeds wasn't too sure where some of the comparative measurements fit in. (I am defiantly going to be looking for photos to model from until I get a better feel for this)

I'm in OH for a week being an auntie for a newborn, so mom can rest. Little girl on shoulders while I finger type. When I put her down, I'll look at garydean's input. Very much love that you posred your birds and thought about this. Come on all this is the time to do this!!

[GaryDean26] I was in OH last month for the Air force Marathon. I loved the area. My only disappointment was that the Historic Farm & Museum that we took all the nieces and nephews to had Barred Plymouthrocks instead of Buckeyes.

 

[ChicKat]

Oh, if you would like to send me an Online Auction Color Chart, awesome (have no clue what this is), but if it helps discussion I'm in. PM me.

Yes, somewhere on this or another thread when people were talking about the colors, I mentioned the online auction chart. It has pages with color swatches which are numbered. In addition to all the pale blues and greens, there would be salmons and creams.

So if one person in one location was talking about the color of the eggs their chicken lays, or the color of salmon that their chicken's breast feathers look like...they could quote a number from the chart -- and providing the person in another location has the chart...they could both be referring to the same color. Or they could say it is between color such-and-such and another color.

For everyone who already sent me their mailing address...thanks...and I have ordered them. Once they arrive to me I will send them out.

 

[redchicken9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redchicken9








Shape: Male

Comb: Single; large, straight and erect, deeply and evenly serrated with five to seven spikes, extending well over the back of the head, without touching the line of the head, free from side spikes or thumb-marks. - [GaryDean26] Yes the GFF lines have LARGE combs. One of my cockerels only has four points. See Photos below.
RedChicken9: BPS has 5-7 spikes and broad at base. They indicate that the comb is large, but not overgrown and state the beak should be clear in front of the comb.

Cockerel #1 - Large straight comb.


Cockerel #2 - Large Comb. Only Four Points. Erect, but not very straight.


Beak: Stout, point clear of the front of the comb, slightly curved.
[GaryDean26] Redchicken9's cockerel looks good in this area. Cockerel #1 & #2 both have combs that are too large and extending in front of the beak.
RedChicken9: Yes I like this, because it tells us large above, but limits how large in proportion to the side profile.

Face: Smooth (or finely textured, mine with small feathers)?
[GaryDean26] I understand a Smooth Face to mean notbeard, muffs, tuffs, etc. The GFF lines appear to have not issues in this area
RedChicken9: Text regarding other breeds will say things like smooth, free from small feathers, soft, fine in texture, free from wrinkles, etc. Some are as simple as smooth. I am thinking fine in texture is a smidge of texture, but otherwise like fine spackling on a wall. Since I haven't looked at a lot of CL faces are yours? I wasn't fully sure if it was of mine. Could use more input here.

Eyes: Large, bright, and prominent. Round in appearance.
[GaryDean26] There doesn't seem to be any issued here in the GFF lines either. Don't we need to define the eye color. I was thinking that the standard was for Orange or Red eyes. Elverything I have been seeing are orange eyes.
RedChicken9: Next set of Male values are all about color. I think we'll do female shape next. If we nail form it's half of the standard and an important part at that.

Wattles: Moderately long, uniform in size, well-rounded, skin soft.
[GaryDean26] What is the Deffinition on Moderately? I haven't seen any chicken with waddles much longer than the three cockerels for comparison here.
RedChicken9: For comparison, the leghorn standard says moderately long for their waddles. To me they have the same waddles in appearance on a two dimensional picture. The Minorca and LaFleche are described as long. Other waddles labeled as moderately long are the Delawares, Hollands, New Hampshires, and Wyandottes. Let's have more feedback on this! Others?

Ear-lobes: Well-developed, hanging about one third the length of the waddles, pendent, smooth and free from folds, equally matched in size and shape.[GaryDean26] What is the deffinition on moderately? Cockerel #1 & #2 are both photos at about 32 week old. I am guessing Redchicken9's cockerel is photoed at aroung 24 weeks old. Hers shows about 1/3 the length of the Waddles, but these grow quite a bit from 25-35 weeks.
RedChidken9: My cockerel was born last week of February, arrived at my place March1. He is about 28 weeks in the most recent above body photos and 24 weeks on the side poses. Also went back to the legbar cockerel figure. Not sure if I'm overly relying on this would love to have a few more images of CL type winners from the 1950s.

Going back to the original post to add in CREST after Earlobes.
Crest: (BPS): Small, compact and carried well back from the eyes. We need to say this in our own voice.

Head: Medium in length, symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality.
[GaryDean26] I am not really sure what all that means. I am guessing we are okay in this area. Anyone else car to comment?
RedChicken9: This one is hard. Here Plymouths are described as moderately large. Leghorns say moderate in length, fairly deep, inclined to be flat on top. The standard indicates that for egg laying breeds "the head should be strong, moderately long and well filled in forward of the eyes to avoid any appearance of crowheadedness, with the skull inclined to be somewhat flat on top rather than round." The BPS just says "fine". Some birds are described as having "broad" heads. I suspect the CL head may not be medium in length, as Brahmas and Orpingtons are examples, here I just don't have enough eyes to say, it was just a starting point. I'm fairly certain it's not a large and broad head, maybe dropping the length, keeping with symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality. It's the fine that is more of the descriptor. The head seems less rounded, and could be somewhat flat on top like the leghorn. Maybe more descriptors for head are needed. My bird is 2,000 miles away, so someone please look! The leghorn comb runs more parallel to the ground. The CL comb rises at a diagnal in the Legbar cockerel plate.

Neck: Long and well covered with hackle feathers.
[GaryDean26] Cockerel #1 seems to have along neck, and Cockerel #2 a short neck (I may just be the way he is postioned in the photos, see below)
RedChicken9: BPS says long. For comparison, Leghorns (ASP) says moderately long for their necks. Estimation based on text fig.2 Legbar cockerel and ASP plates for Leghorns they are of similar length. As a group we need to decide, moderately long is to me says not long, but getting there. I don't think we could go to medium on this.

Back: Moderately broad at the shoulders, narrowing slightly toward the tail, long in length, with an even slope to the tail. Saddle feathers: Abundant, moderately long and sweeping to the tail.
[GaryDean26] It would seem that this is something that will have to be watched since we are seeing a lot of varriation in shape and size in the GFF lines. I think that Cockerel #1 is a good example of broad shoulders (see photo above). We are seeing a lot of short backs though as compared to clasical photos (see below)
RedChicken9: Yes my boy's back seems medium in comparison to what seems to described by BPS long and flat. Still I think the legbar form should lean towards established UK form over what we have. Middle ground again is that ever used, moderately long in length.

Classical Photo from 1951 Autosexing Poultry Society Anual


Cockerel #1 (Left) / Cockerel #2 (Right) / Cockerel #3 (Right Back)
Tail: Moderately full, carried at an angle of forty-five degrees above horizontal. Sickles: relatively longer than main tail, and well curved.

[GaryDean26] Cockerel #1 has the 90 deg angle (as does #3 and Redchicken9's cockerel). Cockerel #2 is a good example as was the one in post #195 by FMP.
RedChicken9: This 45 degree angle is lower that what a lot of seen photos show. My guy will regularly walk with lower tail, but is very alert in photo. However, even with this he is not at 45 degrees, perhaps split the difference, at 70 degrees.

Note: My 'A' hen had a really long tail and her offspring out of cockerel #1 at 4 months old have super long tails. It seems that with the length, angle, etc. the tail is something will will have to keep an eye on in the GFF bloodlines.
Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping.

[GaryDean26] I think there has been some discussion on this already, but Cockerel #1 & #2 show to have wing tips dropping below the body in their profile photos while Redchicken9 and #3 don't. Again this could be the way they are standing, but what is correct here? should the wing tips be up high enough so that they don't show below the body line?
Again my best answer, might not be the real best answer, It's cleaner and reflects back to the BPS (carried tightly and well tucked up).

Breast: Prominent, well-developed, carried forward and upright.
[GaryDean26] What is a prominent brest? I am seeing very upright birds with out much of a brest in the profile photos. The classic photos are quite different. Cockerel #3 is the closest to a prominant brest I have seen. What are we really looking for in this regaurd?
Here I'm still getting a feel for this. The breast is in front by a pinch of the head/beak. It is upright because it has a vertical look. The leghorn is similar and is describe ASP as full, well-rounded carried well forward. The fullness seems to apply to both sides of the keel. I would guess very important, if anyone has further knowledge, please add in.

Cockerel #3



Body and Fluff: Body moderately long, sloping to the tail, broad in front tapering slightly to the rear. Keel of good length, following the line of the back. Feathers: moderately long and close to the body.

[GaryDean26] Again these bodies are short compaired to classical photos.
RedChicken9: Here, I'm drawing on several factors, mainly the Text fig2 legbar cockerel. It looks like both back and keel mirror each other in line. Not sure how well this appears in mine. Here anyone who has thoughts on feather/fluff please add in.

Legs and Toes: Legs moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs medium length. Shanks round, strong, and free from feathers. Toes: four, long, straight, and well-spread.
[GaryDean26] Again wasn't there a color for the legs. I thought the standard was yellow or willow. I have seen some pale leg color and some with a hint of willow (green) but I think that we are good in this catagory (unlees I just don't understand the above description which is possible since I haven't been judging legs).
RedChicken9: Color is described seperate and after form.

Way to go GaryDean26!!! Great and useful review. Who will be the next set of poultry eyes? Want a few more reviewers before I cue up the shape for the female CL.

 

[ChicKat]

Is it just me?
In reading Punnett's studies, it seems our birds are closer to what he developed than the British birds are.

http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf


He mentions the "pale gold of the hackles and the bright chestnut of the wing coverts lead to his presenting an appearance at once brilliant and quite unlike that of the male of any recognized breed."

Now compare that with this:
http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15375

I so agree with you that the whitish bird in the picture--which I will presume for the moment is what the UK folks are aiming for-- is a far less appealing cream legbar to me than the ones we have in the USA...and I have been echoing this point for a looooong time. the particular coloration is one of the very distinctive things about this type of chicken...

I think that perhaps when people say that we have gold legbars, or that that particular explanation from Punnett applies to gold legbars....they may also be slightly off. I guess what we should do is follow up on what GaryDean dug up, and if we test breed one of our colorful cream legbars to a silver hen...depending upon the outcome of the off spring---we will, with our colorful roosterss have cream, and if that is the case, our birds should be within the cream-legbar designation (Genetically).

So could we also aim for the bird that goes to the standard of perfection having "an apearance at once brilliant and quite unlike that of a male of any recognized breed." Each of the roosters listed has a crest and (presumably) the blue egg gene....

Again, perhaps a recognition of the differences between this and that side of the Atlantic, and another reinforcement for changing the name to 'crested legbar'. For example, what if the roosters that Gary Dean has shown, redchicken9 several others who have posted their roosters in this forum were to hatch out chicks when he is bred with a silver hen that proves that he has the cream gene, then wouldn't that rooster definitely be a cream legbar? Has a crest, has cream genetics shown by the resulting chicks...Presumably if he comes from the blue-egg genetic background he would pass the blue egg gene to his decendents....

As far as 'breed true' - to my eyes there is a lot of similarity in these posted roosters...and they could even be mistaken for one another. If the ideal was a totally light rooster as pictured in the UK picture...then the "some chestnut permissible" language would not be included in the breed description IMO. How much is some? How chestnut is chestnut? etc.

 

[babymakes6]

Does anyone have a silver hen?

I love the color in the roosters-to me, the Silver birds just aren't that attractive.

 

[KPenley]

Yes, somewhere on this or another thread when people were talking about the colors, I mentioned the online auction chart. It has pages with color swatches which are numbered. In addition to all the pale blues and greens, there would be salmons and creams.

So if one person in one location was talking about the color of the eggs their chicken lays, or the color of salmon that their chicken's breast feathers look like...they could quote a number from the chart -- and providing the person in another location has the chart...they could both be referring to the same color. Or they could say it is between color such-and-such and another color.

For everyone who already sent me their mailing address...thanks...and I have ordered them. Once they arrive to me I will send them out.

Is this an online chart or a printed one? Sorry, I'm confused.

 

[GaryDean26]

Does anyone have a silver hen?

I love the color in the roosters-to me, the Silver birds just aren't that attractive.

No...I don't have any silver birds. I think this one is Cream though (Gold???). The first photos is her at 7-1/2 months old, and the 2nd photos is her at just under 3 months old. They look silver in the photos, but in person there is no way she could be mistaken for silver. The hackle is a light yellow color.

 

[babymakes6]

No...I don't have any silver birds. I think this one is Cream though (Gold???). The first photos is her at 7-1/2 months old, and the 2nd photos is her at just under 3 months old. They look silver in the photos, but in person their is no way she could be mistaken for silver. The hackle is a light yellow color.

She is a pretty girl.

 

[ChicKat]

Is this an online chart or a printed one? Sorry, I'm confused.

From the name, I see how confusing it can be. It is a paper chart with squares of different colors.... - so it wouldn't be affected by different monitors, for example like an on-screen chart would be. The name,, I think was developed from online auctions like ebay---where the colors on the screen may vary from the real product.

Here's a link
http://www.onlineauctioncolorchart.com/

 

[normanack]

No...I don't have any silver birds. I think this one is Cream though (Gold???). The first photos is her at 7-1/2 months old, and the 2nd photos is her at just under 3 months old. They look silver in the photos, but in person their is no way she could be mistaken for silver. The hackle is a light yellow color.


Oh, my. I'll take six hens just like that, please.

This isn't the best picture -- it's darker and warmer-toned overall than the birds really are -- , but it gives some comparison. To my admittedly beginner's eyes, GaryDean26's hen looks superior in hackle color (warm-toned but not gold) to the right hen below, and in crest (cream and gray, some chestnut permissible) to both of mine.